Michel Ozwald served in the French military as a volunteer during the Korean War. He grew up as an orphan and suffered from extreme discrimination. Children in the Public Assistance program are treated as lower-class citizens and looked at as diseased. The Public Assistance program requires children, once they reach the age of fourteen, to suspend schooling and enter the workforce. Children entering the workforce are required to repay the French government for the debt of raising the child. Michel Ozwald realized the only way to make his life better is to volunteer in the French military. He volunteered for Korea to help people suffering as he had. Throughout the many battles and wars, Korea, the Second Indochina, and Algeria, he achieved the rank of Colonel. Michel Oswald’s life is one of perseverance.
00:00:00 [Beginning of Recorded Material]
Interviewer (hereafter I.): 한국전쟁 뉴욕 재단의 이사장이고요. 현재 저희 재단에는 14개 나라의 1,300개 정도의 참전용사 인터뷰들이 돼 있고요. 그렇게 인터뷰를 저희들이 계속 하는 이유는 무엇보다도 참전 용사분들이 전쟁에 참여했던 그 모든 기록들을 영구히 보존하기 위해서입니다.
(I am the chief director of the Korean War Legacy Foundation. Up to now we held an interview with over 1 300 veterans from fourteen countries. The reason we keep interviewing is above all to preserve the live voices of the Korean War veterans forever.)
Interpreter (hereafter Int.): Je suis le président de la Fondation de l’héritage de la Guerre de Corée, Han Jong Un.
(I am the chief director of the Korean War Legacy Foundation, Dr Han Jong Un.)
Dans cette fondation… notre fondation a recueilli déjà plus de 1300 interviews de vétérans de 14 pays pour justement transmettre cet héritage à la jeune génération.
(Our foundation has already collected more than 1 300 interviews of the Korean War veterans from fourteen countries in the view of the preservation of their intangible heritages, namely their testimonies about the Korean War.)
I: 그렇지만, 또, 이 인터뷰를 이용해서 선생님들이 내일이라도
당장 한국전쟁과 그 한국이 전쟁 후에 이룩한 동시적 경제발전과 민주화를 가르칠 수 있는 교육 자료집을 이 인터뷰를 통해서 만들려고 하고 있습니다.
(In addition, with those interviews for a basis, we are going to make the educational materials in order for the teachers to teach the younger generation about the Korean War and the consecutive achievements like its economic development and democratization.)
Int.: Donc, en fait, le but de cette interview c’est pour montrer à la jeune génération, aux jeunes comment la Corée est sortie de la pauvreté après la guerre, et puis
a réussi à avoir ce succès économique et enfin, préparer des matériels éducatifs.
(One of the other purposes of those interviews is to employ them as educational materials in order to teach the younger generation how the Korean people could get out of poverty after the war and how they managed to have such a remarkable economic development.)
I: 그리고 특별히 내년은 한국전쟁 70주년이 되는 해인데 대한민국 정부의 국가보훈처에서 전 세계 22개국 참전국에 용사들의 인터뷰를 전부 특별 웹사이트에 다 게제를 하려고 합니다.
(In particular, next year, 2020, all of the interview of the Korean War veterans from twenty-two countries will be uploaded on a special website lauched by MPVA in celebration of the 70th anniversary of the Korean War.)
Int.: L’année prochaine, ça sera le 70e anniversaire de déclenchement de la Guerre de Corée.
(Next year 2020 is the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War.)
Donc le ministère, MPVA, a créé un site internet pour mettre en ligne vos témoignages, donc des témoignages des vétérans de 22 pays sur le site d’internet.
(In memory of the anniversary, MPVA, the Ministry of the Patriots and Veterans Affairs, will launch a website in which all the testimony of the Koran War veterans from twenty-two countries will be posted.)
I: 그래서 미셸 선생님의 오늘 인터뷰는 프랑스를 대표하는 세 분의 참전 용사의 인터뷰 중의 하나가 될 것입니다.
(Now, Michel, your interview today will be published in the website together with the other two French veterans’.)
Int.: Donc, votre témoignage d’aujourd’hui
fera partie de trois témoignages français, des vétérans français.
(So your testimony today will be one of the three French veterans’ testimonies.)
Veteran (hereafter V): Merci.
I: 그럼 인터뷰를 시작하겠습니다. 먼저 선생님의 성함을 말씀해 주시고, 다음에 스펠링을 말해주십시오.
(Shall we start the interview? To begin with, may I ask your name and how to spell it?)
Int.: On va commencer, donc. Vous pouvez… quel est votre nom, et puis vous pouvez épeler votre nom s’il vous plait?
(Shall we start the interview? May I ask your name and how to spell it?)
V: Je voudrais vous dire, euh vous avez parlé de Dole comme un village.
(Before starting, I got something to correct. Uh, you’ve just called Dole, the present location, a village.)
C’est une ville. Il faut rectifier parce que les habitants de Dole ils n’aimeraient pas qu’on appelle leur ville un village.
(As a matter of fact, it’s a city. This needs to be corrected because the residents of Dole don’t like their town to be called a village.)
Int.: 소개 하기 전에 수정하실게 있는데 여기 Dole이라는 지방은 조그만 마을이 아니라 도시라고 강조하십니다.
(Before starting, there is something to be corrected. He emphasizes that Dole is not a small village, but a moderate city.)
I: What is your name?
(What is your name?)
Int.: Votre nom.
(Your name, please?)
V: Je m’appelle Michel Ozwald avec un Z. A ne pas confondre avec le tueur de M. Kennedy
bien sûr. Et je suis né le 6 juillet 1932 dans l’Aisne.
(My name is Michel Ozwald with a Z. I’m afraid that you confuse it with the name of murderer of the President Kennedy. I was born in Aisne on July 6, 1932.)
Int.: Comment épeler votre nom?
(How is your name spelled?)
V: O Z W A L D.
(O Z W A L D)
I: Michel. M…
(How is spelled Michel? M…)
V: M I C H E L.
(M I C H E L.)
I: 그리고, 태어나신 날이 언제죠? 생년월일이?
(What is your birthday?)
Int.: Quelle est votre date de naissance ?
(What is your birthday?)
V: le 6 7 à 1 9 3 2.
(I was born on July 6th, 1932)
Int.: 1932년 7월 6일 입니다.
(He was born on July 6th, 1932)
Int.: le lieu de naissance?
(Where were you born?)
Int.: Où est-ce que vous êtes né?
(Where were you born?)
V: Je suis né dans le département de l’Aisne, I was born in the department of Aisne,
A I S N E. Dans la ville de Laon, L A O N.
(I was born in a village called Laon, L A O N, located in the region of Aisne, A I S N E.)
Int.: Aisne 지방 L A O N 도시에서 태어났습니다.
HeI was born in a village Laon, L A O N, in the region of Aisne, A I S N E.)
I: 그리고, 자라실 때 선생님 가족에 대해서 소개를 해주세요. 부모님하고, 그 다음에 형제자매가 계셨으면 몇 명이시고 부모님이 뭘 하셨는지.
(Please tell us about your family from which you were bred: what your parents did for a living, how many your brothers and systers were?)
Int.: Maintenant vous pouvez parler de votre famille, vos parents si vous avez
des frères et soeurs?
(Now, could you tell us about your family, about your parents, and your brothers and sisters if any?)
V: Oui. Je n’ai pas de famille. Je suis un enfant de l’assistance publique. Je suis né… Ma mère a accouché à Saint-Quentin en disant je ne veux pas de cet enfant.
(Yes. I had no family. I am from public assistance. [Note: Public assistance is an alias of orphan asylum.] My mother gave birth to me in Saint-Quentin, but left me with saying that she doesn’t want me.)
Int.: 저는 가족이 없고 assistance publique (주 : 버려진 아이들을 맡는 국가기관) 아이였습니다. 어미니께서 저를 Saint-Quentin에서 출산했을 때, 이 아이를 원치 않는다고 했습니다.
(I had no family. I’m from public asylum for abandoned children. Once my mother had given birth to me in Saint-Quentin, she abandoned me because she didn’t want.)
V: Et elle a tenu la parole. On lui a dit lorsque je suis né « Regardez-le, il est beau, il est mignon, et il est en bon santé, on va vous aider. Gardez votre enfant ». Elle a dit « non, j’ai déjà un enfant, je ne suis pas mariée, je ne peux pas l’élever, je regrette, je l’abandonne ».
(My mother kept her word. She was told, “Look at this boy! He’s handsome, cute, and healthy. We’ll help you. So, keep your child.” She said, “No, I cannot. I already have a child. I’m unmarried. So I can’t raise this boy moreover. I am sorry, but I abandon him.”)
V: Elle a pris son petit sac. Elle a seulement dit je veux
qu’il s’appelle Michel et je veux qu’il soit baptisé.
(Then, she took her little bag, and left. Her last words were that she wants me to be called Michel and to be baptized.)
Int.: 어머니께서 그때, 그 출산하시고 나셨을 때, 그 기관에서 이 아이 너무 이쁘지 않느냐, 우리가 좀 도와줄테니까 아이를 키우라고 얘기를 했지만, 나는 지금 미혼이고 이미 아이가 한 명 있기 때문에 더 이상 원치 않는다. 단지 원하는 것은 이 아이가 미셸이라고 불리기를 원하고 그 다음에
세례를 받기를 원한다라고만 하셨다고 합니다.
(When his mother wanted to abandon him, people tried to persuade her to keep the child promising their help. However, she didn’t want him altogether because she was unmarried, but already had a child. All she wanted was that her child could be called by the name Michel, and be baptized.)
I: 지금 생각해보시면 어머니가 원망스러우세요?
(Now, do your blame your mother?)
Int.: Alors vous avez la peine, vous avez la haine contre votre mère ?
(Now, do your blame your mother?)
V: Pas du tous! Les enfants d’assistance publique étaient placés en nourrice. J’ai été placé chez une dame d’un petit village qui a élevé au total 6 enfants de l’assistance publique.
(No, not a bit. The children of public assistance were usually placed under the care of a nursemaid. I was left to the care of a woman living in a small village who will have been raising six children from public assistance.)
Int.: 전혀 아닙니다. 보유원 아이들은 유모에게 맡겨지는데 저는 보유원 아이들 6명을 키우고 있던 조그만 마을의 유모에게 맡겨졌습니다.
(No, I don’t blame her. The children of public assistance were placed under the care of a nursemaid, and he was so entrusted to a woman living in a small village together with the other five children equally from public assistance.)
V: Ca lui permettait de vivre. C’était une veuve de guerre, de la guerre de la Première Guerre mondiale. Et ça lui permet de vivre en élevant des enfants. Donc on était élevé chez elle. Et à 14 ans, à l’âge de 14 ans nous devions travailler. C’était la loi qui disait que les enfants abandonnés, à partir de 14 ans, doivent travailler pour rendre à l’Etat
ce qu’il lui a permis de vivre jusque là.
(This allowed her to live. She lost her husband for the World War I. Taking charge of us was therefore for her a means of living. So, in our childhood, we were brought up by her. Later, at fourteen, we had to start to work. The then law said that starting from fourteen the abandoned children must earn money to pay back to the State the costs spent so far in order for them to keep living.)
Int.: 전혀 어머니를 원망하지 않습니다. 왜냐면은 이렇게 태어난 아이들은 보통 이제 그 유모들한테 맡겨지는데 미셸 같은 경우에는 그 1차 세계대전 때 미망인이 된 어떤 여성의 가정에 다른 여섯 명과 함께 그렇게 해 같이 맡겨졌답니다. 근데 당시에는
법이 말하기를 14세가 되면 무조건 일을 해야하는 규정이 있었나 봐요. 그래서 14살이 되어서 일을 하기 시작했습니다.
(He doesn’t blame her mother at all. The children from public assistance were usually left to a nursemaid. He was entrusted to a woman who became a widow during the World War I. She took care of six children from public assistance. According to the law at that time, all boys and girls from a public assistance had to begin to work once they reached at their age of fourteen. So, once he turned fourteen, he began to work.)
I: 그러면, 그 미망인한테 입양을 하셨는데 학교는 어떻게 하셨어요?
(Then, you were adopted by a widow. What school did you attend?)
Int.: Alors vos études? Vous avez pu faire des études ?
(How about your schooling? Were you able to be taught?)
V: La loi disait… enfin le règlement que les enfants de l’assistance publique doivent aller à l’école jusqu’à
14 ans. Mais dans mon cas on m’a trouvé… intelligent et les instituteurs euh… ont cru en moi et m’ont fait passer l’examen à l’âge de 11 ans pour que je rentre au collège.
(The then law and regulation prescribed that the children of public assistance can be taught at most up to the age of fourteen. In my case, the teachers thought of me smart and believed in me, so that they gave me chance to take an exam to go to middle school when I was eleven.)
Int.: 그러니까. 이렇게 고아들은 당시 14세까지 학교를 다닐 수 있었다고 합니다. 그러니까 14세 라는 것은
이제 중학교를 졸업하지 못하는 것인데, 당시에 선생님이 미셸이 영특하다고 보셔서 중학교를 가기위한 시험을 보도록 11살 때 시험을 보도록 하셨다고 합니다.
(It was prescribed then that orphans were able to attend school at most up to the age of fourteen. Most children didn’t finish middle school. However, the teachers thought earlier Michel smart and helped him to take an exam to go to middle school.)
Int.: Vous avez pu aller au collège?
(Were you able to go to a middle school?)
V: J’ai été au collège jusqu’au 3e. Et j’ai eu 14 ans. Et probablement, un fonctionnaire euh… qui regardait ses comptes,
il a dit « celui-là il a 14 ans ». Il n’a pas tenu compte de mon intelligence, et on m’a mis au travail.
(I attended middle school til the third grade. When I had turned fourteen, I had to quit schooling. I made a guess that there might have been an officer who inspected the accounts, and then found me out among them. Then he might have said, “This one, he’s already fourteen. He has to be out.” He might have ignored such as how my intelligence was. Anyway, I was indiscriminately put to a forced work when I was fourteen.)
Int.: 14세, 그러니까 중학교만 졸업하고, 근데 그때 당시 규정상 일을 할 수밖에 없었다는 것이죠.
(Accordingly, he had no choice but to work once he had been fourteen years old, having finished just the third grade.)
I: 무슨 일을 하셨어요?
(What did you do?)
Int.: Quel était votre travail ?
(What was your job?)
V: Alors on m’a mis dans une pâtisserie.
(Well, they throw me into a pastry shop.)
(He worked in a pastry shop.)
V: Eh. J’ai appris le métier de pâtissier.
(Mm, I learned pastry cook.)
Int.: 그래서 제과기술을 배우셨습니다.
(So, he learned pastry cook.)
V: Dans la souffrance.
(With a pain.)
Int.: 아주 고통 속에서요.
(With a pain.)
V: Les enfants de l’assistance publique étaient exploités. D’abord nous n’étions pas aimés. On disait que nous étions des enfants de filles…, excusez-moi, perdues, dont le père était probablement un assassin ou un bandit et que nous étions pleins de de… maladies qu’il ne fallait pas nous fréquenter. Donc les enfants de l’assistance publique, nous étions rejetés de tout le monde.
(Children from a public assistance were very ill-treated. People didn’t like us. They regarded each of us as a child from a dissolute woman, or a father who could probably be a murderer or a bandit. Thereupon we were seen as being full of diseases, so to be shunned. In sum, each and every child from public assistance was rejected by everybody.)
Int.: 당시 고아들은 굉장히 사회적 인식이
안 좋았습니다. 뭐 아버지가 살인자라든지 아니면 그 범죄자들의 아이일 수도 있고, 아니면 병이 많이 있을 수도 있고요. 당시에 사회적인 그런 눈초리가 너무 너무 매서워서 당시 제과 기술을 배울 때 굉장히 많이 고통 속에서 생활했습니다.
(At that time, orphans were very ill-treated in their society. They were blindly considered to be from a murderer or a criminal, or to have a lot of disease. Therefore, he had to endure so many contempts toward him, and lived mostly in pain all the while he learned pastry cook.)
I: 그때 학교는 계속 안다니고 계셨죠 그러면은. 제과점에서 일할 때는.
(Anyway, you didn’t attend school when you worked in a bakery.)
Int.: Quand vous avez travaillé en tant que pâtissier, vous avez déjà quitté l’école ?
(When you worked in a pastry, had you already left a school?)
V: Là, j’ai quitté l’école.
(Then, I had already left a middle school.)
Int.: 네. 중학교를
(Yes, he had already left a middle school.)
I: 그러면, 그때부터 한국에 가기 전까지 한국이라는 곳에 대해서 알고 계셨나요? 어디에 있었는지? 아니면 한국이라는 이름을 들어보셨는지.
(Then, had you heard about a country called Korea before you went to Korea? Where were you when the Korean War bursted out? Have you ever heard of a name Korea?)
Int.: Depuis cette époque de l’apprenti de pâtissier et avant d’aller en Corée, est-ce que vous connaissiez déjà un petit peu, vous aviez des connaissances sur la Corée?
(From your pastry apprenticeship on, before going to Korea, did you already know a little bit about Korea?)
V: Non. Non. Je connaissais ce qu’on apprenait à l’école,
sur le monde entier, et les 5 parties du monde. Et mais j’avais bien entendu le nom Corée, mais j’étais loin d’imaginer euh… que la Corée était ce pays divisé. Ça, je l’ai appris beaucoup plus tard.
(No. No. All I knew about the world around us was only what I learned from school, namely the five parts of the world. Of course, I had heard the name Korea, but I had no further knowledge about her, for exemple that she was a divided country. I learnt it much later.)
Int.: 당시 학교에서 배운 것처럼 뭐 전 세계를 배울 때 한국이 있었다는 말은 들었지만 그게 어떤, 어디에 있는지, 뭐 남북 분단 상태 라든지에 대해서는 전혀 모르셨고 나중에야, 훨씬 나중에야 들었습니다.
(All he knew about the world was what he learnt at school. He learnt in a class that there is somewhere a country called Korea, but he didn’t know what it is, where it is. Nor knew he even that Korea is divided into the North and the South Korea. He learnt that much later.)
I: 그러면 한국전쟁이 어떻게 일어났는지를
어떻게 알게 되셨어요? 한국전쟁이 일어났다는 소식을 어떻게 알게 되셨는지.
(So how did you know that the Korean War busted out? How did you come to know the news of the Korean War?)
Int.: Comment vous avez appris qu’il y avait la guerre en Corée?
(How did you come to know that a war broke out in Korea?)
V: Eh bien, euh… j’ai appris ça plus tard parce que je suis resté dans la pâtisserie pendant 2 ans, et à la suite d’un cambriolage, mon patron a été cambriolé on m’a accusé. Donc j’ai dû partir aller en justice, euh… j’ai souffert. On m’a enfermé.
(Well, uh, I came to know it not then but much later. I spend two years in the bakery. (N.B.: This corresponds to a period from fourteen  to sixteen  of his age.) The following years weren’t favorable either. One day, the bakery was robbed and all the people including my boss accused me as thief. So, I had to go to court, I was locked up. Uh…, I suffered much from it.)
On m’a mis partout. Tout le monde voulait que je sois coupable. Je ne l’étais pas. Je ne l’étais pas. On m’a même… Un jour on est venu me chercher à… l’orphelinat. On m’a emmené à la prison à 6 h du matin et on m’a fait assister à la guillotine. J’ai vu à 16 ans, j’ai vu couper la tête d’un condamné.
(I was confined into diverse places. Everyone wanted me to be guilty, but I really wasn’t. I wasn’t guilty. One day morning, at 6 a.m., they picked me up from an orphanage, and toke me to a prison. They forced me to witness they guillotined someone guilt. When I was sixteen, I saw a condemner’s head cut off.)
J’ai eu une fuite d’urine.
(I passed urine on the spot.)
Int.: J’imagine. 제과점에서 2년 정도 일했는데, 2년 정도 일한 시점에 그 제과점에 도난사건이 났답니다. 그런데 주인이 미셸씨를 범인으로부터 몰았데요. 그래서 교도소까지 가게 됐다고 하십니다. 그런데 16세 때 교도소에 있을 때, 그 때는 당시 사형하는게 이렇게 목을 잘라서 사형하는 기요틴이라는 것이 있었는데, 16세 때 그 장면을
보게 했답니다. 감옥에서, 교도소에서. 그래서 그때 아주 엄청난 충격을, 소변을 볼 정도로 엄청난 충격을 받았다고 합니다.
(We can imagine. He had worked at a bakery for about two years. One day, the bakery was robbed, and the owner accused Michel. So he had to be casted into prison. When he was in prison at the age of sixteen, there existed still an execution by guillotine: the execution by cutting the neck. He saw that scene of execution at the age of sixteen. He was shocked at that terrible sight, so urinated.)
I: 그래서 한국전쟁이 발발된 것을 어떻게 해서 알게 되셨나요?
(So how did you come to know the outbreak of the Korean War?)
Int.: Donc comment vous avez su en fait qu’il y avait la guerre ?
(So how did you get to know the outbreak of the Korean War?)
V: Voilà. Alors je suis allé dans une ferme jusqu’à 18 ans. Et la vie était tellement dure pour nous, maltraités, travailler sans arrêt,
que tous les enfants de l’assistance publique n’avaient qu’une envie, partir à l’armée.
(I had to do a forced-labor in a farm until I was eighteen. It was so hard for us: we were ill-treated, had to work non-stop. All the children from public assistance had only one desire: to go into the army.)
Int.: 그래서 당시 고아들은 너무너무 어려운 삶을 살았기 때문에, 18세까지 농장에서 일했는데, 굉장히 항상 착취당하고 너무너무 힘든 생활을 했기 때문에 그 때 당시 한 가지 소원은 어디론가 떠나고 싶다는, 그런 생각밖에 없었습니다. Et alors.
(After that, he had to do the forced-labor in a farm until eighteen. The orphans were put into a miserable life: they were always exploited. Their only hope was to leave somewhere else. What next?)
V: Et en suite, euh…on était, on devait rester sous la coupe
de l’assistance publique jusqu’à la majorité, 21 ans, mais si on partait à l’armée à 18 ans, on était, on était libre. C’est la raison pour laquelle à 18 ans j’ai décidé de rentrer dans l’armée.
(According to the law, all of the children from public assistance should have remained under the control of the State until each turned the age of majority that was then twenty-one. However, if we went into the army at eighteen, then we were let go right there. This is the reason why at eighteen I decided to join the army.)
Int.: 그래서 당시 법으로는 21세가 되는 성년이 될 때까지 국가의 고아의 규정 속에서 살았어야 했는데, 한 가지 예외는 18세에 군대를
가면 이제 자유롭게 된다는 것이었습니다.
(So, according to the then law, people from public assistance were kept under observation until they have passed the age of twenty-one. There was only one exception: if they went into the army even at the age of eighteen, then they were let go right there.)
V: Et à l’époque la France faisait la guerre en Indochine. Et beaucoup de régiments étaient en Indochine. Tout le monde savait qu’on allait aller en Indochine. Mais ça nous… ne nous faisait pas peur parce que mourir au combat plutôt de mener la vie que nous menions. D’ailleurs, tout cela je l’ai écrit dans le livre
qui est là qui s’appelle Un douloureux cheminement.
(Then France was at war in Indochina. So, a lot of regiments were there. Everyone knew that if they join the army, they are sent to the Indochina War. But even this fact didn’t scare people like me because being killed in a battle looked better than keeping a life we led so far. I wrote all of these stories in my book entitled, ‘A Painful Path’ [N.B.: One of the two autobiographies of the veteran.]
Int.: 당시에 군에 입대했을 때는 프랑스가 인도차이나 전을 하고 있던 때라서 당연히 인도차이나 전에 참전할 것이라 생각했습니다. 그러나 군에 입대해 전쟁을 하게 될 거에 대해서는 전혀 두려움이 없었습니다. 왜냐면은 그 당시 고아로써의 생활이 너무너무 힘들었기 때문에 거기서 죽어도 아무 문제 없다고 생각했습니다. 이런 본인의 생활의 얘기를
지금 저 책에다, 자서전에다가 기록하셨습니다.
(When I joined the army, I thought that I would definitely participate in the Indochina War because France was at war in Indochina then. In the meantime, I had no fear of going to war. Because a life of an orphan at that time was so hard that he didn’t care he would die in the war. He wrote those parts of his life in his published autobiography entitled, ‘A Painful Path’.)
V: Et lorsque je me suis engagé à la première caserne qui était là, euh… il a fallu que je me sauve parce que les patrons voulaient me garder. Enfin bref, et euh… et on m’a demandé où je voulais aller. J’ai dit en Indochine. C’était l’époque de… de décolonisation en Indochine et la guerre, la dernière guerre n’était pas
très très loin encore. Les soldats avaient été à l’honneur. Euh euh, par conséquent, il me semblait qu’en allant faire la guerre j’allais devenir quelqu’un qu’on respecterait.
(In order to join the army, I had to attempt a runaway because the employers wanted to keep me. Anyway, I succeeded in joining the army. When I was asked where to go, I said Indochina. It was the period of the decolonization in the entire world. The Indochina War as well bursted out for the same reason. When I joined the army, we weren’t as yet far from the latest battle in the Indochina War. I saw that the soldiers were held in a respect. It seemed to me that if I devote myself to the war, then I could also be held in esteem by others.)
Int.: 그때 당시 어디를 가고 싶으냐고 그랬을 때 인도차이나 가고 싶다고 하셨답니다. 당시에 유일한 소망이랄까 하는 것은 남이 나를 존중해 주는 것을 원했다고 합니다. 그런데 당시 인도차이나 전에 참전했던 용사들에 대해서는
사람들이 약간의 존중하는 마음이 있었다고 합니다.
(When he was asked where he wanted to go, he replied Indochina. His only hope at that time was to be respected from others. He saw that people had respect for the soldiers who fought in the Indochina War.)
V: Alors, à ce moment-là, on m’a demandé où je voulais aller. J’ai dit en Indochine. On m’a dit « non tu vas pas aller en Indochine tout de suite comme simple soldat, tu as fait quand même un peu des études, il se… il faut bien aller dans un régiment que tu fasses un peu d’éducation et tu pourras avoir le grade de sergent, après tu iras en Indochine ».
(When I was asked where I wanted to go, I said it’s Indochina. However, I was replied, “No, you don’t have to go there right away as a private soldier. You were educated a little bit more than others, so it’s better to go to a certain regiment to train you as a sergeant. You can go to Indochina after.”)
Int.: 그래서 인도차이나에
가고 싶다고 했더니, 그렇게 가게 되면 단순한 병으로 가는데, 그러면은 별로 좋지 않을 것 같고, 조금 이제 공부를 좀 더 해서 부사관으로 가면 되지 않겠느냐 해서 그래서 하사로 거기를 가게 되었습니다.
(When he said he wanted to go to Indochina, his senior officer adviced that it’s better to attend trainings to be a sergeant than to go to Indochina right away as a private soldier. So following his advice he was trained as a sergeant.)
V: C’est à ce moment-là que… pendant que j’étais jeune militaire qu’il y a eu la guerre de Corée. Et on s’est posé
des problèmes où est la Corée. C’est à ce moment-là que je me suis intéressé et j’ai regardé la carte. Je connaissais un peu les… le parcours des Américains en 45 en allant en Corée du Nord et compagnie là-bas. J’avais suivi ça. Mais j’avais occulté la Corée et j’ai découvert ce pays comme ça. « Je dois, et je veux aller en Corée ».
(It’s around this time that I heard the Korean War bursted out. We wondered where Korea is located. That’s the first moment I got interested in that country. I looked up this country on a map, and got some knowledge about it, for instance, about the course of the U.S. army and the company concerned in 1945 when they headed to the north. I had been haunted by the thought of Korea. Then I finally made my mind, “I have to and I want to go to Korea.”)
Et on m’a dit que, « bon, tu as été volontaire pour l’Indochine, et on fait un stage et on verra après ».
(And I was told that, “Well, you volunteered for Indochina, and you are still in internship. So we’ll see it later.”)
Int.: C’est avant d’aller en Indochine donc.
(That’s before going to Indochina.)
V: Avant d’aller en Indochine, toujours.
(Yes, that’s before going to Indochina.)
Int.: 아직 인도차이나를 간게 아니라, 가려고 준비를 하던 차에 한국전이 발발했다고 합니다. 그래서 한국전이 발발했다 그러길래 지도에서 어디에 한국이 있는지를 찾아 봤다고요. 그때야 비로소 한국에 어디 있는 줄 알았고.
(He heard the Korean War broke out while preparing to go to Indochina rather than Korea. After he heard the Korean War broke out, he looked up Korea on the map. Then, he got to know where Korea is located and what had happened there.)
V: Et là,
euh on a fait un stage d’un mois pour apprendre à vivre sous les altitudes difficiles. Et on a, on s’est rendu compte que le bataillon [BELLS RING NOISILY], il y avait un bataillon français qui combattait déjà en Corée. C’était un bataillon de volontaires. L’armée française était engagée en Indochine et elle n’avait pas assez de soldats. Alors, on voulait toutefois, la France voulait participer
à cette guerre qui avait été décidée par les Nations Unies. Ne l’oublions pas. Donc on a fait un bataillon de civils.
(So, we finished one month training to learn how to survive the altitude. At the moment, I learnt late the existence of the worth mentioning French battalion who had fought in Korea. It is the very first French battalion which had consisted solely of the civil volunteers. The situation is as following. The entire attention of the French army was devoted to the Indochina War. They did not have enough soldiers for other warfare. Anyway, France finally decided to participate in the Korean War because it had been resolved in the U.N. We should not forget this: The original French battalion joined the Korean War was a hundred percent pure civilians’ battalion.)
Int.: 그래서 1개월간의 훈련을 받고 이제 한국을 가려고 그랬는데, 그때 당시에는 인도차이나 전을 프랑스가 이미 하고 있었기 때문에 자원병이 충분히 않았다고 합니다. 프랑스 대대가 이미
한국에서 싸우고 있다는 것을 알고 있었는데, 두 번째로 이들 1차로 떠난 프랑스 군인들을 대체할 자원병들을 찾다 보니까 별로 이제 많이 없어서.
(So, after one month of training, he made his mind to go to Korea. Because France was already engaged in the Indochina War, there were not enough soldiers for the Korea War. He learnt late that the first French battalion who had already fought in Korea was a hundred percent civilian. They had had a difficulty in securing their replacement. There should have been more volunteers to replace those who left for the first time, but there were not many. So they couldn’t help to be replaced partially by the career soldiers prepared for the Indochina War.)
V: Et, ce bataillon qui était… ne touchait pas l’armée française. C’était des volontaires qui étaient venus pour faire ce bataillon. Au bout d’un an, la guerre en Corée étant dure à cause de la température et des combats, des combats violents.
(So, the French battalion didn’t belong hierarchically to the French army. They were volunteers who became military by no other reason but to be a member of that ephemeral battalion. At the end of that year (1950), the war in Korea became harder and harder because mainly of the climate.)
Twin Tunnel et compagnies…, euh euh, ce bataillon est rentré, enfin, il fallait le remplacer. Mais il n’y avait plus de volontaires. Alors on s’est adressé aux gens qui étaient en attente pour partir en Indochine, et on a dit « quels sont les volontaires ? »
(After the battle of Twin Tunnel, many French companies, uh, eventually the entire first battalion needed to be replaced. But there were no more volunteers. So we asked the soldiers waiting for the Indochina War, “Who volunteer for the Korean War?”)
Int.: 1차 선발된, 한국전에 1차로 참전할 군인들은 다 이제 민간인들이었는데, 말씀드렸듯이
이들을 대체할 군인들이 충분치 않아서, 이제는 이미 군에 있는 [SAME BELLS RING] 사람들한테 자원병을 요청을 했다고 합니다.
(The first French battalion was organized purely by the civil volunteers. But, as he said, there were not enough volunteers to replace them, so they seeked for volunteers among those already joined the army.)
I: 자원병의 조건이 뭐였습니까? 월급같은 것이 있었습니까?
(What were the conditions for volunteers? Was there any kind of salary?)
Int.: Quelles étaient les conditions de ces volontaires donc en fait il y avait des, par exemple, des salaires… ?
(What were the conditions for that volunteering? In fact, was there for example any salary?)
V: Non. Les, le non, c’était… le premier bataillon, j’entends, qui étaient civils qui sont venus ou anciens militaires, c’était des gens idéalistes. Je pense que plus de 50 % des… de ces volontaires euh… voulaient faire de l’anti communisme. Ils voulaient participer. C’était leur façon de penser. Une grande partie,
c’était des aventuriers. Quelques-uns qui avaient des problèmes avec la justice qui avaient intérêt à s’éloigner. Quelques-uns qui avaient des chagrins d’amour. Ca arrive. Mais ils étaient tous des volontaires pour faire partie de ce bataillon.)
(No, there has been nothing. As I heard, the most members of the first battalion were themselves veterans. They were mostly idealist. I think over 50% of volunteers must have engaged because of their anti-communism. They were those who could venture out on the war for that reason only; it was their way of thinking. A large number of the people of the first French battalion were adventurers. Some of them had a problem with the the authorities and needed to flee from them. Some was broken-hearted. No matter who and why, they all gathered around the battalion voluntarily.)
Int.: 1차 선발 때의 군인들에 대해 다시 말씀하시는데, 그들은 이상주의자, 50% 이상이 이상주의자였습니다.
여기서 이상주의라는 것은 코뮤니스트들을 무찔러야 한다라는 반공주의자들이었다는 말입니다. 그 다음, 모험심이 가득한 사람들이도 있었고, 사법기관과 문제를 가진 사람들도 있었습니다. 혹은 상심한 사람들도 있었습니다. 1차로 한국전에 참전한 사람들은 대개 이런 사람들로 구성되었습니다.
(With regard to those who had volunteered in the first place, they were idealists. He estimates more than 50% were as such. By idealism he means that they were those who wanted to defeat communism. There were adventurous accordingly. Some of them had problems with the law. There were also people who were broken-hearted. Those who first participated in the Korean War were usually made up of these people.)
Int.: Et vous, quelles étaient vos conditions pour partir ?
(What about your case? What was your condition for the engagement?)
V: Alors les conditions. Pour moi c’était intéressant je n’avais toujours pas eu d’argent de ma vie.
(Well, to speak of the condition, it was anyway interesting for me because I have never had money in my life before then.)
Donc j’avais un petit salaire je peux pas vous dire combien, mais très important. En Corée, on était payé à 50% en dollars et puis 50 % étaient payés sur un compte en France. C’était très agréable. Je peux vous dire que je suis resté seize mois en Corée, je suis rentré avec sur mon compte en banque, je n’étais pas dépensier, je ne buvais pas, je ne fumais pas,
j’avais un million de francs de l’époque de côté. C’était féerique pour moi.
(So I drew a salary. I cannot tell you exactly how much I was paid, but it was handsome. In Korea, the half of salary was paid in dollars and the other 50% were transferred into an account in France. It was very nice. I stayed sixteen months in Korea. I wasn’t a spendthrift; I did not drink; I did not smoke. So, when I came back to France, I had a million francs in my bank account. It was fantastic for me.)
Int.: 당시 월급이 굉장히 아주 흥미로왔다고 합니다. 왜냐하면월급이 굉장히 많았는데, 당시 50%는 달러로 수령하고 50%는 여기 프랑스의 계좌에 맡겨졌는데 16개월 동안 한국전에 참전한 다음에 귀국하니까 계좌에 굉장히 많은, 지금 100만
프랑이라고 말씀하십니다. 당시에는 굉장히 꿈 같은 돈이었다고요.
(The salary at the time was very interesting for him. Fifty percent of the salary was payed to each soldier in dollar and the rest 50% was deposited in their account in France. For him, it was dreamlike money.)
V: Mais les histoires d’argent, je les ignorer avant d’aller en Corée. C’est une fois là-bas que j’ai appris que j’étais payé. C’était merveilleux pour moi étant donné ma condition.
(But the money didn’t matter to me; I did’t know about it before going to Korea. It was once after we arrived in Korea that we learned that we will have be paid that much. It was wonderful for me provided my situation until then.)
Int.: 그렇지만 돈 때문에 한국엘 간 것은 아니라고요. 한국 떠나실 때는 급여가 이렇게 많다는 것조차 모르셨다고요. (But it wasn’t because of money that he decided to engage in the Korean War. Until he arrived in Korea, he hadn’t known how much he will be paid.)
I: 그래서 지금 벌써 30분이 지났거든요.
질문에 좀 답을 해주셔야 하는데. 언제, 어디서 한국에 어떻게, 몇일 날 도착하셨는지를 좀 빨리 이야기해 주십시오.
(So, it’s already past 30 min. You need to answer some questions. Please tell us briefly when, where, and how you arrived in Korea.)
Int.: Vous avez le souvenir quand est-ce que, la date de votre arrivée en Corée, et comment vous vous êtes réunis en France, et puis le parcours, l’itinéraire jusqu’à l’arrivée en Corée?
(Do you remember when you arrived in Korea, and how you gathered in France? How was the itinerary until you arrived in Korea?)
V: Oh, je me souviens. C’est dans mon deuxième livre d’ailleurs. J’ai un deuxième livre qui parle, je parle
de ma vie militaire. Donc alors nous embarquons nous sommes à, nous préparons à embarquer sur le SCOGOUM, un bateau norvégien.
(Oh, I remember it. It’s all written in my second book in which I told my military life. Gathered together, we prepared to embark on a Norwegian ship called ‘SCOGOUM’.)
Int.: Marseille. SCOGOUM? 노르웨이 선박에 승선 하셨습니다. La date? (SCOGOUM? In Marseille, you boarded a Norwegian ship. When was it?)
V: C’était en novembre. Je ne sais plus. Et nous avons débarqué à Yokohama le 24 décembre. (It was on November. I know nothing beyond that. We disembarked at Yokohama on the 24th of December.)
Int.: 52년 11월달이었습니다. C’était en 52? (It was on November ’52. And it was in ’52, right?)
V: En 52. Oui. Le bataillon était rentré déjà. C’était le 2e bataillon, ça s’appelait toujours le bataillon de Corée. Voilà, c’est ça. (Yes, in ’52 [N.B.: The number 52 will be shortly, at around 00:38:00, corrected to 51 by the interviewee. So, the translator will suffix the correct number of the year ‘51’ with bracket  after each spoken number.] The first battalion had already all returned. We were the 2nd battalion, but it was still called by the same name, Korea Battalion. Yes, that’s it.)
Int.: 1952년 11월 마르세이유를 출발하셔가지고
12월 24일에 요코하마에 도착하셨습니다.
(He left Marseille in November 1952 and arrived in Yokohama on the 24th of December.)
V: C’est ça. Euh, on s’était arrêté un peu partout. Mais il y avait un accident lorsque notre bateau est parti de Marseille, un journal qui s’appelait La Marseillaise, a écrit des choses méchantes à notre égard en disant « 500 mercenaires sont partis combattre nos frères communistes en Corée ».
(That’s it. Uh, we stopped all over the place. Following is worth noting. There was an accident before sailing off from the port in Marseille. A local newspaper called La Marseillaise wrote nasty news about us, which said roughly, “Five hundred mercenaries went to fight against our communist brothers in Korea.”)
Int.: 마르세이유에서 선박에 승선을 했을 때 거기 현지 지방지 라 마르세이예즈라는 지방지에서 이 분들에 대해서 굉장히 나쁜 기사를 썼다고요. 500명의 용병들이 우리의 친구인 공산주의자들을 처단하러 간다라는 기사가 나왔다고 합니다.
(Before sailing off from the port in Marseille, they got an accident. A local newspaper called La Marseilles printed nasty news about them some days before; it said that 500 mercenaries are on the way to kill our communist brothers in Korea.)
V: Comme notre bateau a été saboté, 3 jours après le bateau est revenu à Marseille.
(Our ship was sabotaged by those who were affected by the news. Tthe ship had to return to Marseille three days later.)
Int.: 그래서 이제 그 선박에 문제가 있었다고요.
사보타쥬 (고의적으로 파괴)를 당했다고 합니다. 그래서 3일 후에, 떠난지 3일 후에 다시 마르세유로 귀항해야 하는 상황이었습니다.
(Ship had a problem. Someone had sabotaged it. So, it had to return to the same port three days after it had left Marseille.)
V: Alors les anciens, puisque moi j’avais 19 ans, ont lu les journaux, ils ont décidé de se venger et moi je les ai suivis. On est allé au journal La Marseillaise à la rédaction, et on a tout cassé.
(The senior soldiers found the newspapers, and they decided to take revenge and I followed them. I was only nineteen then. We penetrated into the newspaper office, La Marseillaise, and broken everything in its editing room.)
Int.: 그래서 그 선박에 있던 그 선배들이랑 같이 라 마르세이유 신문사에
가서 다 파괴했다고 하네요.
(He and his senior soldiers, they penentrated into the office of the local newspaper La Marseillaise, and destroyed everything in its editing room.)
V: Je vois encore les anciens me donner une machine à écrire en me disant « tiens, petit, jète ça par la fenêtre ». Je jettais, je vois, j’entends toujours le bruit du premier étage la machine à écrire qui explose sur le trottoir, vous savez ?
(I still have an image that a senior has handed me over a typewriter and said, “Take this, kid, and throw it out the window!” I had done as he said, and I can still hear the noise from the first floor, that of exploding of a typewriter on the sidewalk. You see?)
Int.: 그래서 선배들이 예를 들어서 신문사에 있는 타자기 같은 것들을 막 던지고 그러는 것을 요청했다고 합니다.
(He had carried an order from senior soldiers; he had thrown out the window, things in the office like typewriter.)
V: Finalement, après, on nous a promenés
un petit peu partout. Euh et puis quand le bateau a été réparé, nous sommes partis et nous sommes arrivés donc à Yokohama. On est passé à Formose, euh… et puis, euh… on est remonté jusqu’à Yokohama.
(After that, we strolled through every street in the town. When the ship was repaired, we finally left off and arrived in Yokohama. First, we passed through the Staits of Formosa (Taiwan), and then got to Yokohama.)
Int.: 그래서 선박이 이제 다 고쳐진 다음에 포르모즈 해협을 통해서 12월 24일에 요코하마에 도착했고.
(Once the ship was completely repaired, they departed again from Marseille. Passed through the Straits of Formosa, they arrived in Yokohama in Japan on the 24th of December.)
I: 그런데 중요한 것은, 소원이
어딘가를 그 곳을 떠나서 다른 곳으로 가고 싶은게 소원이셨는데 실제로 그렇게 가보니까 그때 기분이 어땠습니까?
(May I ask an important question? You said that you always dreamt to leave the place where you had been and to get to another place. How did you feel when your dream finally came true?)
Int.: Alors, donc, vous aviez qu’un seul désir, c’est de partir, en fait, de quitter la vie misérable de l’époque. Alors, une fois arrivée en Corée, quelle était votre première impression ?
(You had only one desire: to leave the place you had been and to escape from the miserable life. So, once you arrived in Korea, what was your first impression?)
V: Alors on a traversé le Japon. On a été habillé l’américaine d’abord au camp Drake à Tokyo.
(So, we traversed Japan. First, we were newly dressed ourselves at an American camp in Tokyo, the Camp Drake.)
Et puis on a traversé le Japon en train, et on a embarqué à euh… à Sasebo pour débarquer à Busan. Il faisait très froid. On a rejoint le 38e parallèle dans un train euh… froid. Il faisait très froid. Les souvenirs que j’ai, je voyais des familles coréennes qui marchaient le long de la voie ferrée
avec des miséreux des pauvres, de la pauvreté des gens qui souffraient de froid, souffraient de faim. Ça m’a beaucoup ému.
(And then, we traversed Japan by train, and embarked, uh…, in Sasebo to disembark in Busan. It was very cold. We joined the 38th parallel in a cold train. It was very cold. I remember that I saw Korean families walking along the railroad: wretched, and suffered from cold and hunger. It touched me a lot.)
Int.: 도쿄를 가로질러서 사세보를 통해 부산에 도착해서 38선까지 올라 갔는데 기차로, 이제 처음으로 본 것은 한국인 가족들이 추위에 벌벌 떨면서 그 철도 길을 걸어가는 그 모습, 배고픔과 그 추위에 떠는 모습, 그 모습이 첫 번째 인상입니다.
(From Tokyo, he traversed Japan, and arrived in Busan from Sasebo. He joined the 38th parallel by train. The first thing he saw was Korean families walking along the railroad, who were suffering hunger and trembling in the cold. This is the first impression.)
V: Les locomotives euh…
sans arrêt klaxonnaient pour faire partir les gens qui marchaient sur la voie ferrée. Pour avoir une idée de la misère (j’ai) une anecdote. Nous étions dans le train en train de manger notre boîte de ration. Un de mes camarades pose sa boîte de conserve par terre, et puis il prend un biscuit. Au moment de manger, il ne trouve plus sa boîte. Il me dit « qui a pris ma boîte ? » Personne n’a pris la boîte ?
(The locomotives had had to honk all the time to chase people off from the railroad. I have an anecdote which permits us to guess about the misery of the population at that time. We were on the train eating our ration. One of my comrades put his can on the floor, and then moved out of the place to take a cookie. When he came back, he could no longer find his can and ration box. He said around us, “who took my box? Nobody took the box?”)
Il remet une deuxième boite, elle disparait aussi.
(He came out his second box, but it also disappeared.)
Int.: 그래서 이제 철도에서는 열차 기관사가 항상 클락손을 했답니다. 왜냐하면 한국인들이 너무 많아 가지고 철도 위에. 그리고 또 한 가지 이제 에피소드를 말씀드리자면은, 전우 중에 한 명이 그 식사를 하다가 그 군대 식량을 이제 먹다가 캔 같은 거를 옆에 놔두면은 옆에 놔 두는데 금방 없어진데요. 그래서 두 번째 꺼내면 또 없어지고. 그런 일이 항상 있었습니다.
(The train always had to blow a horn because there were so many Koreans walking on the railroad. Let’s see an episode to tell us their misery. One of his comrades was eating his ration. When he put ration’s can right next to him, it disappeared. When he came out his second ration, it disappeared again.)
V: Et alors, on remet
des biscuits, et on voit une petite main. Il y avait un enfant caché sous le siège, mal habillé et miséreux qui crevait de faim. Alors on a tiré l’enfant, mignon comme tout, et on l’a amené avec nous, on l’a nourri et on l’a habillé. Et à Séoul on l’a donné à la Croix Rouge.
(And then, as we put cookies back again, we saw a little hand. There was a child hidden under the seat, poorly dressed and starved. So we got out the boy who was cute like every others. And we brought him around us; we fed and dressed him. And arrived in Seoul we placed him to the Red Cross.)
Int.: 그리고 한 번은 그 비스켓 같은 것을 옆에 놔두었더니 조금만 손이 올라와가지고
비스켓을 가져가려 그래 가지고 걔를 이제 끌어다가 먹이고 입히고 해서 서울로 들어왔을 때 그 적십자에 넘겼다고 합니다.
(And, once he put the biscuit next to him, a small hand came up and tried to take the biscuit. So, he pulled him up, and fed and dressed him. When he came to Seoul, he handed him over to the Red Cross.)
I: 중요한 질문인데, 이 분이 어렸을 때 고아였고, 어렵게 고생을 많이 하셨는데, 그런 걸 보면서 어떤 감정을 느끼셨는지요?
(This is an important question. You yourself were an orphan, so you suffered from the same misery a lot. How did you feel when you saw him?)
Int.: Vous étiez vous-même donc orphelin. Alors quand vous avez vu ces gamins, alors, quels étaient vos sentiments?
(You yourself were an orphan. How did you feel when you saw him?)
V: Ma, je me suis revu. Je me suis revu
miséreux. Parce que j’ai eu faim dans mon enfance et euh… j’ai été très touché.
(Well, through the kid, I saw myself again. I saw again a miserable being. Because I was always hungry at the time, uh…, I was very moved by him.)
Int.: 당연히 저 스스로도 고아였고, 배고픔을 겪었기 때문에 그 작은 아이를 보았을 때, 자기 자신을 보는 것 같았다고요.
(Of course, I myself was an orphan, and when I saw that little child, I felt like I saw again myself in hunger.)
V: A l’époque, il y avait beaucoup de misères en Corée. On voyait les gens marcher avec des sacs sur le dos, les papas san, les mamas san, comme on appelait là-bas, miséreux. On leur donnait ce qu’on avait, mais euh… c’était triste à voir. Et moi, j’ai commencé politiquement à avoir des idées. J’ai compris la raison pour laquelle on était là, j’ai compris que le communisme, c’était quelque chose de grave, d’important qui voulait dominer le monde. Et je suis devenu un combattant engagé.
(At the time, Korea was full of misery. We saw people walking with packs on the back. ‘Papa-san’ (Note: Japanese appellation of a father) and ‘mama-san’ (Note: Japanese appellation of a mother), as we called them then, was all miserable. We gave them what we got, but uh… It was too sad to witness them. Start from that moment, I beared a political idea. I realized the reason why we were there: I realized that communism was a really serious and substantial attempt to dominate the world. And I was reborn as a committed fighter.)
Int.: 그래서, 한국에서 본 것은 정말 굉장한 빈곤이고,
그래서 가지고 있던 식량들을 나눠 주긴 했지만 충분치 않았습니다. 그 다음에 이제 조금 더 시간이 지난 다음에, 스스로 공부를 해서 어떻게 지금 이렇게 전쟁이 일어났고, 어떤 정치적인 상황을, 그리고 이제 그래서 정치적으로도 눈을 뜨게 되었습니다.
(What he saw in Korea was really a great poverty. So they handed them over the food they had, but it wasn’t enough. Start from such moments, he realized himself the political situation of the war as to why this war had to break out. He had opened his eye since then.)
I: 서울에 가보셨나요? 서울에 가보셨으면 그때 도시가 얼마만큼 파괴가 됬는지 자세하게 설명을 좀 부탁드립니다.
(Have you been to Seoul then? If so, please explain in detail how much the city was destroyed then.)
Int.: A l’époque vous êtes allé à Séoul aussi ? Vous avez vu dans quel état se trouvait Séoul ?
(Have you been to Seoul then? Did you see in what condition Seoul was placed at the time?)
V: Pas tout de suite. Je suis allé tout de suite… C’était hiver. On est monté au front tout de suite. On a fait une formation. On m’a donné une spécialité. J’étais chargé… parce que j’avais été formé dans un régiment d’artillerie. Donc j’étais pas… euh… j’étais relativement intelligent probablement. On a dit que je serais observateur de… euh… de mortiers 81 et de tireur au motard. Je devais régler des tirs de mortiers
sur les troupes chinoises pour aider… C’était un travail d’artilleur. J’ai été formé en quelques jours et puis tout de suite on est monté en ligne.
(Not immediately. Right away, I went to another place. It was winter. We went to the front immediately. We did some training, and were given each specialty. I had been trained in an artillery regiment. Probably I was considered relatively smart, so they said I would be a pointer of the 81mm mortar and the biker shooter. I had to lay a mortar fire aiming at Chinese troops. It was a gunner’s job. I was trained in a few days and then immediately sent to the front.)
Int.: 서울에는 곧장 가지 못했습니다. 왜냐하면 처음에는 전선에 곧바로 투입되어야 했기 때문입니다. 그래서 처음에는 포병으로, 포병중에서 본인이 똑똑하다고 생각했는지 부대에서 81mm포를
관측병으로 포의 발사를 조준하는 임무를 맡았습니다. Alors, quand est-ce que vous êtes allé à Séoul ?
(He didn’t go to Seoul right away because he had to be put directly into the battle. He was trained in the artillery. He was recognized smart among the others and was given a role of laying of the 81mm mortar. Then when have you been to Seoul?)
V: Alors, vous savez que… on n’avait pas beaucoup de permission. Euh… c’était 24 h c’est tout et il fallait d’abord faire son travail. J’avais, deux mois après, j’ai eu ma première permission pour aller à Séoul.
(Well, as you imagine, only a brief leave had been permitted for us. That was for 24 hours, that’s all. We had to do our job first. Two months later, I had my first leave to go to Seoul.)
Int.: 휴가가 많이 없었을 뿐더러 작업을 다 마친 후에야 고작 24시간 휴가를 받았습니다.
두 달이 지난 다음에야 첫번쨰 휴가를 받을 수 있었습니다.
(Only a brief leave, for 24 hours, was allowed. He had to do his job first. So, he had the first leave two months later. )
V: Alors, on partait en camion militaire avec un petit sac. Le camion nous laissait à l’entrée de Séoul. Et puis on avait toute la journée et la nuit pour se promener dans Séoul.
(So we got into a military truck with a small bag. The truck released us at an entrance of the Seoul city. Then we spent all day and night wandering about Seoul.)
Int.: 그래서 군용트럭이 서울 입구까지 데려다 주고, 하루 동안 밤과 낮 동안 서울을
돌아볼 수 있었습니다.
(So the military truck took him to the entrance to Seoul, and he was able to tour Seoul for 24 hours.)
V: Alors Séoul, c’était détruit.
(Seoul, it was then completely destroyed.)
Int.: 서울은 그 때 완전히 파괴된 상황이었습니다.
(Seoul was then completely destroyed.)
V: C’était terrible. Dans mon livre il y a des photos de Séoul d’époque.
(It was terrible. In my book there are pictures of Seoul at that time.)
Int.: 본인 책에 당시 서울의 모습이 담겨있는 사진이 있는데,
(In his book there are pictures of Seoul at that time.)
V: C’était détruit. C’était la misère aussi. Et alors, il y avait des trafics, évidemment. Un militaire qui est au combat, on ne voit pas de femme, on ne voit personne. La permission, c’est pour essayer de trouver une femme. Tout le monde euh… voulait… voulait trouver
une femme. Alors, ça se vendait. Les… les Coréens avaient tellement faim et autre, il fallait gagner la nourriture. Alors on venait avec des… des boîtes de ration de… qu’on donnait comme ça. Et puis, on passait la soirée avec une jeune fille. Moi, j’étais tout jeune. Je n’étais pas expérimenté ni en amour ni en rien. J’étais ébloui. [LAUGHS]
(It was destroyed, and it was miserable as well. No doubt, there were traffickers. As a soldier in combat, we don’t see a woman at all. Nor see we anyone else. The goal of leave is mainly to find a woman on the street. Everyone wanted to find a woman. So, it was held dealings. Needless to say, the Korean people were altogether hungry, so they wanted foods. We were able to get what we wanted at the cost of the ration boxes we brought along with. In the evening, we found a young woman. She was very young. I had never known before, so I was dazzled.) [LAUGHS]
Int.: 당시 서울은 완전히 파되된 상태였습니다.
그들의 빈곤 그 자체를 엿볼 수 있었습니다. 당연히 젊은 군인으로써 휴가를 나간다는 것은 여자들을 만나기 위함인데, 그 때 얼마나 빈곤했냐면 가지고 있던 전투식량을 상대로 여자들을 만나는 경우가 많았습니다.
(At the time, Seoul was much destroyed. And people in Seoul were poor as well. Of course, to get a leave meant to us, as soldiers in the front, to find a women on the street. The people living in Seoul at that time were as much starving as they were ready to sell whatever they have at the least cost of the ration boxes we had.)
V: Donc, le premier combat que j’ai fait, euh… nous sommes allés… occuper la frontière à Keum Hwa.
(I experienced the first battle when we went to occupy borders in Keum Hwa.)
Int.: Keum Hwa?
V: Keum Hwa.
(Yes, Keum Hwa!)
(The battle of Keum Hwa.)
V: Keum Hwa. Là, j’ai encore les cartes d’état-majeur sur lesquelles je faisais mes calculs pour tirer les obus. Je suis resté là, à Keum Hwa. On est resté, je crois, un mois.
(My first battle was held in Keum Hwa. I still have a map made by the General Staff Office on which I had carried out my calculations in laying. We stayed in Keum Hwa, I believe, for a month.)
Int.: (Ça c’est) Votre première bataille ?
(Was that your first battle?)
V: C’est ma première bataille.
(Yes, that’s my first battle.)
Int.: 그래서 첫번째 전투가 금화 전투였다고 합니다.
(He said that the first battle he experienced was the battle of Keum Hwa.)
I: 언제 였습니까? 그리고 소속이 어디였는지요.
(When was it held? And where was your unit?)
Int.: Vous faisiez partie donc…
votre unité, c’est quoi le nom ?
(What was the name of the unit you were in?)
V: C’était le bataillon français de l’ONU. Il y avait 3 compagnies de fantassins (infanterie), et une compagnie qu’on appelait la ‘Queen compagnie’.
(It was the French battalion of the U.N. The French battalion consisted of three infantry companies, and the other company called ‘Queen Company’.)
Int.: Queen ?
V: Oui, Queen Compagnie. C’est la compagnie qui a les armements, les mitrailleuses, les mortiers de 81 et les [IN ENGLISH] Seventy-Five Recoilless. Voyez, si vous voulez deux mot anglais.
(Yes, Queen Company. It was a company that had the armaments like machine guns, 81mm mortars, and Seventy-Five Recoilless. I said the last two words in Enclish as we had usually called it.)
V: Seventy-Five Recoilless.
75 sans recul. Voilà. Et… euh… on était sur les lignes, les Chinois étaient en face. Il faisait froid, les rivières étaient gelées. On ne se battait pas beaucoup. Il y avait des coups de fusil. Mais on allait faire des coups de main.
(The 75mm gun without recoil. Here. So, uh…, we were on the front line facing with the Chinese soldiers. It was cold, the rivers were frozen. We didn’t fight a lot. There were gunshots, but it was generally the covering fire.)
Int.: C’était en 52?
(It was in ’52.)
Int.: 그래서 당시 1952년이었는데,
당시에 본인이 소속된 부대는…
(It was in ’52. His unit was…)
V: Janvier et février ’52.
(It was in January and February of 1952.)
Int.: 프랑스 대대는 3개의 보병중대와 Queen 중대라고 불리던 1개의 포병중대가 있었는데 거기서 이제 자신은 포병중대 소속이었습니다. 당시 포병중대에는 아까 말하 81mm 박격포 외에도 75mm 무반동포 등을 보유하고 있었습니다.
(The French battalion consisted of three infantry companies and one artillery company called ‘Queen Company’. At that time, the artillery company had the 75mm recoilless guns, and the 81mm mortars.)
I: 지금 ’52년이라고 그러셨는데,
’52년에 떠나서, ’52년 11월 24일에 요코하마에 도착했기 때문에 ’53년일 거라고 얘기해 주세요.
(You have just said it was in ’52. However, since you left France and arrived in Yokohama on November 24, 1952. It must be in ’53 that you fought your first battle.)
Int.: Donc, en fait, comme vous êtes à Keum Hwa, ça doit être en janvier 53. C’est ça ? Janvier-février 53. 1953.
(So, you must have fought in Keum Hwa in January ’53, not ’52, right? From January to February of 1953.)
V: Non. Non. ’52.
(No, no. It was in ’52.)
Int.: Mais, vous avez dit tout à l’heure vous êtes arrivé à Yokohama le 24 décembre ’52.
(But, you’ve just said you arrived in Yokohama on December 24, 1952.)
V: Non. C’était ’51. (No, it was ’51.)
Int.: Ah ! ’51 ? (Ah ! Was it ’51?)
Int.: 아. 여기서 틀렸다고 합니다. 요코하마에 도착한 것이 ’51년, ’51년 12월 24일 이었고, 지금 첫번째 전투를 치른 것이 ’52년 1, 2월 이렇게 된답니다.
(Ah. He got wrong here. He arrived in Yokohama on December 24, 1951. So, now, the first battle was held in January and February 1952.)
V: Excusez-moi là.
(I’m sorry for the confusion.)
Int.: Oh, non.
V: Et, il n’y avait pas de combats vraiment, si ce n’est des… ce qu’on appelait, en militaire, des « escarmouches ». C’est-à-dire des patrouilles ennemies qui venaient pour nous attaquer,
ou nous on allait là-bas.
(And, there was no full-scale battle. There were only, what we military call, skirmishes: enemy patrols come to attack us, then we went there to cope with it.)
Int.: 당시 처음에는 아주 직접적인 전투는 없었고, 정찰 같은 것을 하면서 적을 만나게 되면 간헐적으로 전투를 하는 상황이었습니다.
(There was no full-scale battle. The actions were intermittent in that first they encountered with enemy patrol’s attack, they went to a given spot to beat off the attack.)
V: Et moi, j’accompagnais toujours dans la journée, on regardait les terrains. On disait « on ira là, on ira là. On va essayer de faire des prisonniers, il y a des Chinois là-bas ». On disait Nord-Coréens et Chinois, c’était pareil pour nous les combattants. Et,
on préparait l’opération, et moi préparait des tirs d’artillerie, de mortier. Et on est allé là-bas plusieurs fois. Et une fois on a été surpris. On a été découvert parce qu’on marchait dans les rizières à plat ventre. Et puis, on nous a tirés dessus, et on était bloqué. On ne pouvait plus revenir.
(Whenever we dispatched the scout units, I always accompanied them in order as a gun layer to aim at targets. We used to say, “This time, we will go this spot and that spot. We will try to take prisoners, for there are Chinese.” We called North Koreans and Chinese indiscriminately; it was the same for us fighters. Then, when we were preparing for the operation, I was too preparing artillery fire, namely, the mortar fire. We had been there several times. That time, however, we were very surprised because we were discovered by the enemy while creeping in a rice field. And then we were exposed to the attack, so we were stuck in that situation. We couldn’t even come back.)
Int.: 그래서, 낮에는 정찰을 하면서 이제 항상
거기서는 중국인이라 불렀는데, 중국인 중에는 당연히 북한 군인들도 포함되어 있었겠죠. 그런데 대대에서는 항상 중국인이라고 불렀다고 합니다. 중국군. 그런데 그러면서 낮에 정찰을 하면서, 발포를 준비하곤 했는데, 하루는 논에서 중국군에 포위되는 상황이 있었습니다.
(So, day and night, there were the scouts. They always called Chinese and North Korean soldiers indiscriminately. The battalion always called them Chinese. Whenever there was a scout operation, he, as a gun layer, accompanied them in order to prepare for shooting. One day, they were surrounded by Chinese troops in a rice field.)
V: Le lieutenant qui nous commandait, et là je donne son nom parce que c’était un héros. C’est le lieutenant Barrès. (Here, it’s worth mentioning a name of the lieutenant who commanded us at that time because he is one of the Heros. It’s lieutenant Barrès.)
V: Barrès. On parle de lui dans tous les livres… Il y a eu une promotion de saint-cyrien qui s’appelle Barrès, d’ailleurs. Et, il m’a dit « on était coincé dans la neige, dans la rizière, et si le jour se lève, ça exterminerait, toi, l’artilleur, regarde cette mitrailleuse là-bas, il y a une mitrailleuse, il faut la détruire ». J’ai réussi à détruire la mitrailleuse.
(Barrès. We make mention of him whenever we talk about the Korean War. Among the promotions of the French Military Academy in Saint-Cyr, there was one baptized Barrès. He said to me, “We were stuck in the snow, in the rice field, and if the day rises, we will be exterminated. You, a gunner, look at the machine gun over there. It’s enemy’s machine gun. We must destroy it.” I managed to destroy the machine gun.)
Int.: 그때 이제 포위된 상사 중에서
바레스라는 대위가 있었답니다. 이 바레스 대위는 프랑스 군인들한테 영웅으로 불리는데, 여기 생-시르 육사에서도 바레스 기가 있을 정도로 유명한 사람인데, 그때 그가 미셸에게 말한 것이, 너가 포병이니 저기 보니까 포가 하나 있는데, 내일 아침 새벽이 되서 날이 밝으면 저 포로 우리를 죽일 것이니까 가서 저 포를 파괴하라는 명령을 내렸다고 합니다.
(Among those were stucked as such, there was a captain Barrès. Captain Barrès is consideded as a hero among the French soldiers. He is so famous that there was a promotion baptized Barrès of the French Military Academy in Saint-Cyr. Under the situation in question, Captain Barrès told Michel that you’re artillery; so over there, there’s a enemy‘s machine gun; if sun rises, the enemy will kill us all by it. Captain Barrès ordered to him to go and destroy the machine gun.)
V: Et on est revenu. On a pu revenir, sain et sauf, sans prisonniers, mais sain et sauf. On m’a félicité, et j’ai eu ma première médaille là.
(Thanks to that success, we could come back. We were able to come back safely and soundly, despite of no capture. I was acknowledged and awarded my first medal for that.)
Int.: Vous l’avez détruit en fait…
(You made actually a success of destroying it.)
V: Oui. J’ai détruit, et j’ai… dû tuer 5 personnes.
(Yes. I destroyed it, and besides I had to kill the five enemies.)
Int.: C’était quoi la médaille?
(What kind of medal did you receive?)
V: C’est la croix de guerre française.
(It is the French Croix de Guerre.)
Int.: 아. 전쟁…(It’s…)
V: La croix de guerre de TOE, des Troupes de l’Opération Extérieure. (It is a medal called ‘Croix de Guerre’ awarded to the soldiers of foreign operations.)
Int.: 대외작전 참전용사들에게 수여하는 메달인데, (This is a medal awarding to the soldiers participated in the foreign operations.)
V: C’est…. euh… en Amérique, on appelle ça…, quand on fait un coup de main, un coup d’héroïsme. On a une médaille. Chez nous, ça on appelle ça la croix de guerre. Les Américains, ils appellent ça
Silver Star je crois.
(In the U.S., they award it to a soldier who performed his heroism in a battle. We have the medal of similar character. We call it ‘Croix de Guerre’. In the U.S., they call it ‘Silver Star’, I think.)
Int.: Silver… (Silver…)
V: Silver Star. (Silver Star)
I: Silver Star. (Silver Star)
Int.: 미군한테는 실버스타에 해당하는 영웅적인 행동을 한 군인에게 수요하는 크르와 드 게르라는 전쟁메달입니다.
(It is a medal called ‘Croix de Guerre’ bestowed to a soldier who performed some heroic action in a battle, which is equivalent to ‘Silver Star’ to the U.S. military.)
V: Toutes ces médailles, quand on fait la guerre ou une carrière on finit par en avoir beaucoup, et on est, on peut avoir la Légion d’honneur. D’abord, la Médaille militaire, et j’ai eu la Légion d’honneur.
(We recount all medals we were bestowed for the achievements either of engagements to the war or of the long career we ended up. So, if the achievement amounts to a certain height, we are qualified to be given a metal called ‘Légion d’honneur’ for the summarizing sake. First, I had the Military Medal, and I had finally the Légion d’honneur.)
Int.: 그 다음에 이런 여러가지 공적이 쌓이면 나중에 레지용 도뇌르라는
국가 최고의 훈장을 받게 되는데 그것도 나중에 받았습니다.
(After that, as their achievements were accumulated, one qualified to be awarded the country’s highest medal, Légion d’honneur.)
I: 근데 그때 그것을 혼자 하셨나요? 가셔서, 포를 폭파하고 5명의 적을 사살한 성과가 혼자하신 일인가요 아니면 같이 하신 일인가요?
(But did you do that alone then? Go and destroy a machine gun, and kill the five enemies, did you do those things all alone or together with your comrades?)
Int.: Quand vous avez détruit justement ce mortier, tué 5 personnes, 5 hommes, vous n’étiez pas seul, vous avez été aidé ?
(When you destroyed the mortar, and killed the five people, you were alone, or were you helped?)
V: Bah oui, mais oui. Il y avait tous les fantassins autour. Puis, j’ai obéi au lieutenant en me disant
« tu es là pour ça, tu dois… tu as préparé des tirs, il faut que tu nous sortes de là ». C’est comme ça que ça s’est passé. J’ai… je n’étais qu’un petit sergent de 19 ans.
(Well, yes, I was helped. There were the infantry all around us. Then, I obeyed to what the lieutenant orderd to me, “Lay well for shots, that’s why you are here among us. You have to well prepare shots. Whether or not we get out of here, it depends on your precision.” This is what happened before. I was then just a 19-year-old sergeant.)
Int.: 당시 19살의 하사에 불과했기 때문에 당연히 바레스 대위의 지시를 받아서 한 것일 뿐이고, 당연히 주위에는 동료 보병들이 더 있었습니다. (He was just a 19-year-old sergeant then. Of course he did it under the command of Captain Barres, and there were fellow infantrymen around them.)
I: 그래서, 금화전투가 굉장히 격한 전투였는데,
그 때 부상당하신 적이 있나요? (So, the battle of Keum Hwa was known as a very fierce battle. Have you ever been injured at that time?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez été blessé, par exemple Keum Hwa, la bataille Keum Hwa était très très dure? (Were you injured, for example in the battle of Keum Hwa which is known as very very fierce?)
V: J’ai été blessé euh… d’une manière bizarre. Il faut que je parle d’un combat, vous avez peut-être entendu parler de combat de T-Bone. Je suis passé… Le T-Bone, c’était euh… une petite montagne, un piton qui était dans no man’s land.
(I got hurt in a weird way. I need to talk about another battle. You might have heard of the battle of T-Bone. I participated to that battle as well. It was held on a small mountain, a peak which belonged to no man’s land.)
Il y avait la ligne de front, les rivières, le no man’s land, et euh… le T-Bone. Et de l’autre côté, une montagne qui était occupée par les Chinois. Et nous, nous étions sur l’avant-poste. Et les Chinois étaient à notre contact. On s’insultait. Les soldats chinois nous disaient, « Soldat français, rentre chez toi ! Tu vas mourir. ». Et nous on répondait, « Merde ! ».
(On the one side, there were the front line, the rivers, no man’s land, and finally T-Bone. On the other side, there was a mountain occupied by the Chinese. And we were on the outpost. And the Chinese were in contact with us. We insulted each other. Chinese soldiers yelled out, “French soldier, go home! You will die.” Then, we yelled out for a response, “Shit!”)
[LAUGHS] Mais bon, vous voyez. Et aussitôt ça rafalat. On était très près, très près. On a vécu dans les… dans les cadavres. Les cadavres étaient… Le T-Bone avait été pris et repris par les Américains., et puis par les Chinois, et nous on l’a réoccupé après. Les cadavres étaient là qui pourrissaient. Il y avait des cadavres gonflés, gonflés. Les tranchées étaient pleines de cadavres. Dès qu’on creusait avec une pelle pour faire un trou,
on tombait sur un ventre noir qui pue depuis…. C’était une odeur, je vais vous dire, cette odeur, elle m’est restée dans la tête. Quand je passe actuellement toute ma vie près d’un endroit où il y a eu un mort, je le sais, je le sens.
[LAUGHS] Can you see? The shift was immediate. We were very close, very very close. We lived surrounded with dead bodies. The T-Bone had been taken by the Chinese, and recaptured by the Americans, and then again by the Chinese, and we reoccupied it afterwards. Dead bodies were getting rotten. They were swollen. The trenches were full of corpses. As soon as you dug in with a shovel, you would have found a stinking black belly of a dead body. It smelled like no other kind we could ever smell of. It stuck in my head, and has never left for the entire of my life. I could guess right, if I would be asked whether I were led in a room with a dead body. I can know it. I can smell it.
Int.: 좀 이상하게 부상을 당했는데, 어쨌든 그 당시 상황을 좀 말씀 드리겠습니다. 티-본 이라는 곳이 있는데, 티-본이라는 곳은 미군과
중공군이 서로 탈취하는 봉우리에 붙여진 이름이었습니다. 프랑스 군인과 중공군은 서로 마주본채로 서로의 목소리가 들릴 정도로 가까운 곳에 있었습니다. 중공군은 « 집에 돌아가라 프랑스 인들아 안그러면 곧 죽을 것이다.» 라고 소리치고, 저희는 욕으로 응수를 했었습니다. 그곳에는 발에 밟힐 정도로 너무도 많은 시체가 있었습니다.
(He was injured, but in a strange way. It needs a story in advance to make sense the situation. There is a place called T-Bone. It’s the name of a peak taken by the U.S. and the Chinese forces alternatively. The French and Chinese soldiers were facing with each other and were so close enough to hear each other’s yellings. The Chinese said, “Go home, French soldiers! You will die soon.” We shouted with curse, “Shit!” The heavy fightings between them left behind so many corpses.)
시체가 썩는 냄새가 어찌나 지독헀는지, 그 냄새가 머리 속에 각인되어서 그것을 잊을 수가 없습니다. Vous continuez ? Quel est le rapport entre T-Bone, Keum Hwa et votre blessure ?
(He couldn’t forget a smell of rotting dead bodies that were spearding at that time. It is imprinted in his brain. Sir, you may keep up. However, what is the relationship between T-Bone, Keum Hwa, and your injury?)
V: Ah, bah! J’y arrive. Donc cet avant-poste, les Chinois et les Nord-Coréens voulaiet le récupérer. Et il fallait absolument qu’on se garde de devant, mais,
derrière. On savait qu’un jour ils nous attaqueraient. Et puis un beau jour, on avait des renseignements, on avait fait des prisonniers qui avaient parlé, on savait, que le T-Bone allait être attaqué, on était en alerte. On avait… était enterré, on creusait nos trous. Et puis en effet dans la nuit ils nous ont attaqué de devant, mais de derrière aussi. Ce qui fait qu’on allait… on allait y rester
pratiquement. [BELLS RING] Et là encore, on m’a demandé de tirer de mortiers sur nous. Il fallait se dégager. Il y avait devant nous des Chinois qui… Vous savez les… euh… la technique des Nord-Coréens et des Chinois, ce n’était pas du tout la technique de combat américaine. On part par milliers par centaine en courant, en hurlant avec des drapeaux euh… rouges. Et nous on tire, on tire là-dedans et ça tombe,
mais ça continue. C’est des attaques suicides extraordinaires. Il laisse beaucoup beaucoup de cadavres sur le terrain. Et là, on en était là, et le euh… et puis j’avais un soldat sous mes autres qui était mon radio, qui faisait marcher mon poste radio. Et je demandais des messages de tir. Et à ce moment-là on nous a bombardé des mortiers. Ça giclait partout. La terre nous giclait partout.
(Ah, bah! I arrive there. So, at this outpost, the Chineses and the North Koreans wanted to get it back. We absolutely had to keep it from the front side, but leaving behind open. We knew that one day the enemy would attack us from the front side. And then one fine day, we had secret information from a prisoner that the T-Bone was going to be attacked soon. We were on alert, so dug many trenches. And then, in fact, during the following night they attacked us from the front, but also from behind. So we were surrounded by the enemy from two sides. Practically, we were stucked there. [BELLS RING] And again, I was asked to fire enemy’s mortars aiming us. We had to get out of there. In front of us, there were the Chineses. However, you know that the tactics of North Korean and Chinese soldiers were noting like the American troop’s combat technique. Tens of thousands Chineses soldiers, screaming, rushed upon us with red flags. And we made an endless shoot. We kept up shooting them. They falled down, but the rush itself wasn’t beaten. It was an extraordinary suicide attack. It left a lot of dead bodies on the battle ground. I had then under my command a messenger who ran a radio. It’s through him that I sent firing messages. And at the moment, we were bombarded with mortars. The earth squirted out of the bombardment.)
Et puis on a tenu. On a résisté. Et au petit matin il n’y avait que des cadavres, et les Chinois étaient partis. On avait gagné. Mon radio me dit « Regarde ! Tu as du sang plein l’oreille. »
(However, we resisted the attacks. We had finally held our positions. In the early morning, the Chinese were gone. There was everywhere their dead bodies. We had won. The messenger told me, “Look! You bleed from your ear.”)
Int.: Vous n’avez pas senti.
(You didn’t feel it.)
V: J’ai pas senti.
(I didn’t feel it.)
Int.: 그래서 티-본에 중국군 인질을 잡아서 티-본으로 중공군이 다시 공격을 하러 온다는 알고 있었답니다. 그래서 전방에서 준비를 하고 있었는데
(So, they obtained secret information from a Chinese prisoner that the Chinese army would attack T-Bone soon. So they had to prepare the possible attack from the front side.)
중공군의 전투방식은 굉장히 미국군이랑 달랐다고요. 그들은 마치 자살하는 것처럼 수천명이 한꺼번에 몰려오면서 그냥 쓰러지고 쓰러지고 하는 그런 식의 전투를 했답니다. 그때 미셸씨 옆에는 무전기를 갖고 있는 전령이 있었는데, 전투가 여러시간 지속이 됬는데, 아침에 이제 환해져서
(But the enemy attacked from the back side either, employing a tactic that was unlike to any of the U.S. army’s. They came to suicide, rather than to fight. Tens of thousands of people rushed upon them at once with an aim nothing but of falling and falling down. At that time, there was a messenger with a radio next to Michel.)
보니까 전령이 « 너 지금 귀에서 피가 나고 있잖아 » 그랬다고 합니다. 전선을 지키는 동안 여러 군데에서 포가 쏟아지는 상황에서 파편에 맞은 것 같은데, 정작 본인 스스로는 그때 그것을 느끼지 못했다고 합니다.
(Once the battle, lasted for several hours, was over, in the morning, the messenger told him, “You are bleeding from your ears.” It seems that he was hit by a broken piece while the shells poured them from every direction. They succeed in guard the front line. He was injured while he was totally insensible of it.)
Int.: La bataille a duré longtemps ?
(Did the battle last long?)
V: Ça durait un mois. Moi, j’y suis resté 10 jours. Après on était épuisé. On ne mangeait pas à cause de l’odeur…
(It lasted a month. I stayed there for the first ten days. Then we were exhausted. We couldn’t eat because of the smells of…)
Int.: 판문점, 땅굴
이런 얘기도 많이 하셨는데, 그때 사진을 굉장히 많이 찍어서 친구들에게 보여줬는데 친구들이 믿지 못하겠다고, 너무 놀랍다고 그럤답니다. 그리고 마지막으로 말씀하신 것은 한국은 나의 두번째 조국이라고 말씀하셨습니다.
(He talked a lot about Panmunjum and tunnels to his friends. But they seemed to have been a little bit hard to believe of them even if he showed the pictures he token then. And the last thing he said was that Korea is his second country.)
I: 그런데, 떠나실때, 1953년도 떠나셨는데, 떠나실때 한국이 그렇게 발전하리라고 상상해보신 적이 있습니까?
(When you left Korea in 1953, have you ever imagined that Korea will develop like today?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez pu imaginer en 53 quand vous avez quitté la Corée que la Corée deviendrait
telle quelle aujourd’hui ?
(When you left Korea in 1953, have you ever imagined that Korea will develop like today?)
V: Non. Non. Je n’imaginais pas. Mais, je connais bien les Américains. Je sais qu’avec les Américains, euh… ils sont capable de tout transformer. Mais… après, j’étais toujours impressionné par les puissances américaines. Et, commercialement, euh… la Corée du Sud a éclaté, éclaté. D’ailleurs, son voisin actuellement euh… n’est pas très content. [LAUGHS]
(No, no. I didn’t imagine. But, I already knew how powerful the U.S. is. I knew that under the power of the U.S., anything can be transformed into anything. Afterwards, I was still impressed by witnessing their power. In terms of economy, the development of South Korea is splendid, splendid. On this account, his neighbors are not now very happy.) [LAUGHS]
Int.: 당연히 그때 당시에는 한국이 이렇게 될 것이라고는 상상하지 못했습니다. 그런데 미국의 파워는 믿었다고요. 미국의 도움으로는 무엇이든지 될 수 있었다는 생각은 있었다고 합니다.
(Of course, he couldn’t imagine Korea would be like today. But he had realized already how powerful the U.S. was. He beared a slight idea that no matter how seriously a country may be destroyed, it could be rebuilt with the help of the U.S.)
I: 그런데, 2차대전 후에 미국이 원조한 나라가 굉장히 많거든요. 그런데 원조한 모든 나라가 한국같이 발전을 한 것은 아니라고 얘기를 해주세요.
(By the way, there were so many U.S. aid-receiving nations after World War II. But not all countries that received their aid have developed like Korea.)
Int.: Après la Deuxième Guerre mondiale, évidemment, les États-Unis ont beaucoup aidé
les différents pays parce qu’il y avait beaucoup de pays en difficulté, mais ces pays-là ne sont pas devenu tous comme la Corée aujourd’hui. Vous savez?
(Besides Korea, the U.S. gave assistance to so many different countries after World War II. However, not all of those countries became like Korea today. You know?)
V: Oui, oui, oui, bien sûr. Bien sûr, mais c’est la question des leaders politiques. Il suffit que malheureusement, vous voyez ce qui se passe actuellement euh… en UR… en Russie. Vous voyez bien que
Poutine est là et que ça marche plus. Vous voyez bien en Corée du Nord, on fait le mariole, on fait… mais ça ne marche pas tellement non plus. Les mensonges ne durent qu’un moment. Malheureusement ces querelles ralentissent le développement des pays. Et c’est comme ça que beaucoup de pays n’ont pas progressé. Mais il faudrait avoir la foi dans l’avenir.
(Yes, yes, yes, of course. That’s the question of political leadership. It is enough to see what is happening now in Russia. You can see that Putin hold real power there, but it doesn’t work like the bygone days. You can see likewise that in North Korea they still commit the evil political practices, but it doesn’t really work either. Lies only last for a while. Unfortunately, these quarrels, however, delay the development of a country. And that’s why many countries couldn’t achieve the progress. But we should have faith in their future.)
Je pense que l’être humain va de l’avant, il développe forcément, forcément. On ne peut pas rester sur sa position. Quand le peuple est là, le peuple voit ce qui se passe maintenant à la télévision. Et dans les pays, on voit avec les migrations chez nous. Je ne parle pas de M. Trump aussi. Tous ces pays qui veulent s’en aller, ça ne marche pas, où il y a des incapables qui commandent tout. Et que le peuple…
(I think that the human being goes forward. We are obliged to develop, necessarily. We have never stayed in a given position. Everyone see what is happening now on television. We see that the migrations from many countries into this country are occurring. I’m not talking about Mr Trump. The populations want to leave their homeland because it doesn’t work, because the incompetents control everything. And those people…)
Tout ça, tout ça, ça doit évoluer. Ça évoluera forcément.
(All this, all this, it must evolve. It will inevitably evolve.)
Int.: 정치 리더의 중요성도 당연히 작용한다고 생각합니다. 어떤 나라가 발전하고 못하고에 있어서. 러시아의 푸틴이나, 북한을 당장 보더라고, 어떤 리더를 만나느냐에 따라서 그 나라가 발전할 수 있느냐 없느냐가 중요한데, 미래를 믿어야 한다고 생각합니다. 미래를 믿는 민족이,
국민들이 있어야 된다고 생각합니다.
(He thinks the political leadership is a matter of primary importance to determine whether or not a country sees its development. It depends on what leader they meet. You see as its counterexamples Putin of Russia, and Kim of North Korea. But he thinks we have to believe in the future.)
I: 지금 한국의 경제가 세계 몇위인지 아세요?
(Do you know how high South Korea ranks now in the world in the economic power?)
Int.: Vous connaissez la puissance économique de la Corée, actuellement dans le monde ?
(Do you know how high South Korea ranks now in the world in the economic power?)
V: Je sais pas. Elle se situe, elle se situe en haut du tableau.
(I don’t know. It may be located at the top place of the table.)
Int.: 정확히는 모르지만 상위권이라는 것은 알고 있습니다.
(He doesn’t know exactly, but he guess it’s located in the top place.)
I: 지금 현재 11대로, 열한번째로 큰
경제 대국인데, 2030년이 되면 프랑스를 앞지를 수도 있어요. 어떻게 생각하세요?
(It is now the 11th largest economy in the world. By 2030, people say, it would overtake France. What do you think of it?)
Int.: Actuellement, c’est la 11e puissance mondiale.
(Currently, it is the 11th largest ecomony in the world.)
V: Ah, oui. Ça ne m’étonne pas.
(Ah yes. That does not surprise me.)
Int.: Alors, certains disent que en 2030 la Corée devencerait la France. Qu’est-ce que vous en pensez?
(Moreover, some says that by 2030 Korea would overtake France. What do you think?)
V: Ça m’étonne pas.
(It doesn’t surprise me.)
Int.: 놀랍지 않습니다.
(It doesn’t surprise me.)
V: Ça m’étonne pas. La France bon, elle a toujours été un pays en avance, etc. Mais c’est pas garanti à vie hein !
(It doesn’t surprise me. France was good before; it has always been a leading country so far. But that’s not guaranteed for life, hein?)
Euh euh… d’où on balbutie un peu maintenant avec nos dirigeants, on ne sait pas trop où aller. Euh euh donc, on n’avance plus tellement. C’est logique. D’ailleurs. M. Macron, il s’en rend compte tout doucement. Ça peut arriver en Corée, aussi.
(We’re now stagnant a bit with our leaders who don’t really know where to go. We don’t get much forward like before. It’s logic. Besides, the President Mr Macron seems to be realizing gradually this fact. It can happen in Korea, too.)
Int.: 당연히 프랑스가 과거에 잘 나가는 국가였지만 한국이 프랑스를 앞지를 수 있다고 생각합니다. 지도자의 능력. 현재 프랑스도 마크롱 대통령이
어려워하고 있는데 충분히 한국이 앞지를 수 있다고 생각합니다.
(He thinks Korea can overtake France. France was good in the past, but she is passing a hard time because of the absence of the leadership including the actuel President Mr Macron.)
V: Le mot n’est pas de moi. Mais l’argent, trop d’argent tue l’argent.
(However, please remember this saying which is not mine though: Too much money kills money itself.)
Int.: 본인 말씀은 아닌데, 많은 돈은 돈을 죽인다는 그런 말이 있다고 합니다. 하나의 격언인데요.
(He gives a saying: Too much money kills money itself. That’s a proverb.)
I: 그런데, 처음에 가셔서 보셨을 때, 철로길에 있는 부모들과 아이들이 먹을 것이 없어서,
배고프고 굶주리고 떨고 있었을 때의 그 모습에서 경제 11대 대국으로 된 것에 대한 소감이 어떠세요?
(When you first had been, Korea was a contry in which everyone were starving and shivering with cold, the parents and children were on the railroad track having nothing to eat. In the meantime, that country became the 11th largest economy in the world. How do you feel about this change?)
Int.: Alors, vous avez parlé de ces miséreux que vous avez trouvés sur les rails, comme vous êtes arrivé, alors maintenant la Corée est la 11epuissance mondiale, alors quel est votre sentiment ?
(So, you have talked about the misery you witnessed when you first arrived in Korea: the populations on the railroad, etc. Now Korea is the 11thlargest ecomony in the world. What’s your feeling?)
V: C’est la métamorphose, c’est la métamorphose euh…
(It’s a metamorphosis, it’s a metamorphosis.)
Int.: 완전 변신이라고 할 수 있습니다.
(He thinks it’s a kind of metamorphosis.)
V: Peut-être elle n’a pas les problèmes d’immigration la Corée ? Je ne sais pas si la Corée reçoit des immigrants, je ne crois pas.
(Does Korea happen to have any problems about the immigration? I don’t know if Korea receives immigrants, I don’t think so.)
Int.: 한국에도 난민 문제가 있는지는 모르겠습니다. 프랑스는 어쨌든 난민 문제가 있습니다.
(He has a question whether Korea has a problem in regard of immigration. France has many problems with it.)
I: 프랑스 보다는 아주 적다고 말씀해주세요.
(It’s much less than France.)
Int.: C’est très peu. Il y a des immigrés.
(It’s much less than France even though there are immigrants.)
V: C’est ça que je ne comprends pas. Les miséreux, les Africains,… ont tendance,
un reflexe natuel d’aller dans les pays riches. Et un pays comme la Corée qui est rich, pas tellement de monde y va. Quelle est la raison, est-ce la langue, est-ce que… je ne sais pas. C’est paradoxal.
(This is what I don’t understand. It’s natural that the miserable, the Africans for instance, tend to go to the rich countries. People don’t choice a country like Korea, which is rich. I don’t understand what the reason is. Whether it’s altogether because of the language or something else, I don’t know. This is for me paradoxical.)
Int.: 좀 이해 안되는 부분이 있는데, 배고픈 난민들이 한국처럼 잘 사는 나라에 가야되는되 왜 안가는지 모르겠습니다. 언어 때문인가요 ? 잘 모르곘습니다.
(There is something he doesn’t understand. He doesn’t know why hungry immigrant don’t decide to immigrate to a country like Korea which is rich. Whether it’s because of the language, he doesn’t know.)
I: 그게 원래
역사가 그렇게 되어있습니다. 프랑스가 옛날부터 알제리나 이런 쪽으로부터 많은 난민들을 받게 되었었고, 한국은 그렇지 않고 가난헀기 때문에 그 쪽으로 올 생각을 안가다가 이제야 들어가기 시작하는 거죠.
(That depends on how the history went on previously. France has been receiving a lot of immigrant from Algeria or the similar countries since ancient times. Meanwhile, Korea was so poor, so had no merit for the emigrants so far. It’s only recently that emigrants have interst in this contry, and we receive them little by little.)
Int.: Historiquement, la France a en rapport avec l’Algérie et tout ça. C’est pourquoi ces immigrés viennent plutôt en France. La Corée était toujours pauvre. C’est seulement récemment que la Corée est devenue riche. C’est pourquoi
(Historically, France has had much involvement either with Algeria or with the other countries. This is why these emigrants rather come to France. Korea was always a relatively poor country. It is only recently that Korea has gotten rich. Maybe that’s the reason.)
V: Il y a des pays pauvres autour tout de même hein. Euh, euh… du côté de l’Inde là, il y a des pays qui veulent, ont faim régulièrement qui pouvaient très bien aller vers l’Est parce qu’ils ne viennent pas en Europe.
(In your case either, there are poor countries around all the same. On the Indian side for example, there are countries whose hungry people dream of emigrating. They may have good reason to go east because they cannot come to Europe.)
Int.: 아시아에도 가난한 국가가 많이 있는데, 그런 국가들은 동쪽으로 가야되지 않느냐고.
(There are many poor countries in Asia as well. They have good reason to go east?)
V: Est-ce que la politique
coréenne comporte des textes qui permettent l’immigration facile ?
(Does Korea adopt any policy that allows the immigration easier?)
Int.: 한국 정부가 난민들을 수용하는 것에 용이한 법전을 만들고 있는 지 모르겠습니다. (I don’t know whether Korea adopt any policy that allows the immigration easier?)
I: 이제 만들기 시작하고 있는데, 이제 중요한 것은 한국전쟁에 관한 선생님의 의견을 들어야 되는데, 굉장히 어려운 전쟁에 많은 참여하셨어요. 굉장이 여러가지 종류의
어려움을 겪으셨겠지만, 딱 한가지만 가장 어렵고 힘들었던 것이 무엇이냐고 질문을 한다면 뭐라고 대답 하시겠어요?
(We made a good start to design the policy. Be this subject as it may, return to our main story, we would like to listen to your opinion on the Korean War. You participated in a number of fierce battles. You may have had various kinds of difficulties. What was the most difficult kind or thing?)
Int.: Votre question, on va en parler tout à l’heure, parce que on parle de votre participation à la guerre de Corée. Vous avez participé à de nombreuses batailles. Vous pouvez nous parler juste d’une seule bataille la plus diffficile ?
(We will have an occation to reponse to your question later. It’s rather for talking about your participation in the Korean War. So, you have participated in many battles. Can you pick up the single most difficult battle?)
V: C’est… c’est Arrow-Head.
(It is the battle of Arrow-Head.)
Int.: 화살머리 전투.
(It is the battle of Arrow-Head.)
V: Quand les bombardements, vous savez les Chinois commencaient comme ça, Nord-Coréens et Chinois, euh… ils commencaient à euh… à nous titiller un peu, puis masser des troupes et puis quand ça commencait, ça commençait par des bombardements. Ils tiraient beaucoup d’artilleries, d’artilleries russes bien sûr. Euh… quand on a 24 heures sur les bombardements,
on a les oreilles cassées, on a des blessés, on a des blockhaus qui ont éclaté, on a des tranchées, nos tranchées qui sont étroites, sont évasées par les obus. Euh… à ce moment-là, on donne l’assaut, l’assaut a duré plus de 24h. C’est manifestement pour moi euh… le combat le plus dur qu’on a fait. D’ailleurs à un moment on a failli s’en aller. On a dit « on est obligé de partir et on ne tient pas ».
(North Koreans and Chinese, they always started by irritating us with small bombardment before they deployed the mass attack. At the beginning, there was only moderate bombardment. And then, they fired a lot of artillery; it was Russian artillery of course. After we were exposed for 24 hours to the bombardments, it happened that someone lost his hearing, someone wounded; bunkers exploded; our narrow trenches turned into ruins by shells. Under those conditions, we ventured to assault. The assault lasted more than 24 hours. It’s obviously for me the hardest fight we’ve ever had. In addition, at one point we almost beat a retreat. We said, “We have to leave and we can’t hold on”.)
On a tenu. C’est la gloire de bataillon. Et débarquent les américains qui sont venus avec l’aviation et et puis Patton, Charles Patton qui nous ont sortis de là.
(We held on anyway. It’s the glory the French battalion accomplished. And finally the Americans were landed with the air force and then Charles Patton helped us to get out of there.)
Int.: 이 전투가 힘들었던 이유 중 하나는 폭탄이 굉장히 많이 투하 됬답니다. 물론 처음에는 조금 시작했지만 나중에는 정말 대량의 폭탄과 그 다음에 어떤 그 포들이 발사되었고 그 다음에 계속 하루종일
24시간 이상 돌격이 있었는데 그래 가지고 24시간 이상 폭탄 소리를 들으면 귀가 먹먹해지고 잘 들리지도 않았다고 합니다. 그리고 이렇게 숨어 있는 그걸 뭐라 그런지 참호가 굉장히 좁았는데 그 많은 폭격으로 좁은 참호가 넓어지기도 하고 그런 경우가 너무 많이 있어가지고. 더군다나 그 지역을 그 지점을 더 이상 지키지 못할 것이라는 생각까지 들어 가지고
이제 가려고도 했었는데 결과적으론 나중에 미군이, 미군 항공이 지원을 해서 이제 그곳을 끝까지 보존할 수 있었다는 이야기입니다.
(The main reason why the battle of Arrow-Head was the most difficult one is the fierceness of the bombardments dropped upon us. The enemy started with lesser level at first, but later, a really large number of bombs were fired. The bombardment lasted more than 24 hours. After bombardment, our trenches very narrowly dug should be widened and there were so many injuries. At one moment, we were thinking we can no longer to hold on the area. However, we never stopped to assult, and we defended our position. Subsequently, the U.S. military was landed with the aviation support, and the latter made us possible to preserve it to the end.)
I: 보통 프랑스 사람들은 미국 사람들을 그렇게 막 좋아하고 이러지 않는데, 그때 미군과의 관계로 어땠습니까?
(Usually French doesn’t like American outspokenly. How was your relationship with the U.S. military at that time?)
Int.: En ce moment, enfin, on entend souvent que les Français n’aiment pas trop les Américains, mais apparemment à l’époque quelle était votre relation avec les Américains ?
(Well, nowadays, we often say that the French don’t like Americans that much. At the time how was your relationship with the Americans?)
V: Très bien.
(It was very good.)
Très bien. Parce que nous là-bas le bataillon on est Français, on vit français. C’est-à-dire on avait du bon vin. Les Américains, ils venaient dans nos popotes quand on est en repos à Ka-pyong, goûtaient notre vin et notre cognac, he he. Et ils connaissaient ça. Donc on pouvait… J’ai des amis encore,
j’ai un camarade euh… qui s’appelle Skip Shenna qui habite dans Orégon. J’ai même eu la marine de guerre, des jeunes américains qui voulaient nous parler les soldats français.
(It was very good. Because we are French battalion, we live French. That is to say, we had good wines. The Americans came by our barrack when we were resting in Ga-pyeong, and tasted our wine and brandy. And they really tasted them. I have some friends of that time. I still keep contact with one of those whom I got acquainted with then, named Skip Shenna living in Oregon. There were also young Americans from the Navy, who liked to talk with us, the French soldiers.)
Int.: 굉장히 사이가 좋았습니다. 가평에서 쉬고 있을 때 미군들이 프랑스 대대의 병사들은 와인이랑 코냑을 갖고 배급품으로 갖고 있었는데, 그때 미군들이 와가지고 같이 나눠 마시는 것을 좋아했습니다. 지금도 미군 친구들이
있습니다. 오레곤에 사는 스킵 쉐나 라는 친구도 있고, 계속 연락을 할 정도로 사이가 좋습니다.
(They were very close. While resting in Ga-pyeong, the American soldiers came by the barrack to taste wine and cognac which was rations for the French battalion. Americans liked to come and share with them. He still has American friends whom he got acquainted with at that time. One of them is Mr Skip Shena who lives in Oregon. He still keeps in touch with him.)
V: J’avais une marine de guerre qui s’appellait Carole Michel. Vous voyez, je me souviens encore, euh… qui m’a écrit tout le temps, tout le temps, m’a envoyé des photos. Non, non.
(I have a friend from the Navy called Carol Michel. I still remember his name for he wrote a letter to me many times with his pictures. No, no, we were good.)
Int.: 해병대에 속해있었던 카롤 미셸이라는 친구도 있었고, 그 친구가 자주 사진도 보냈다고 하네요. (He had also an American friend named Carol Michel, who was in the Navy at that time. Mr Carol Michel often sent his photos to him.)
I: 그 때 한국군이 있었나요? 같이 전투에
참여했나요? 한국 사람이 있었습니까? 아니면은 그 버스보이처럼 어린아이가 그 여러 가지 시중을 드는 그런 어떤 버스보이 이런 한국 소년이 있었나요?
(Was there Korean army at that time? Did you have the battle together with them? Was there any Korean? Or was there a kind of busboy, a Korean child who attends all kinds of thing you want?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez batailler avec les soldats coréens aussi ? Est-ce que vous avez connu les coréens ensemble ?
(Did you fight with Korean soldiers too? Did you know the Koreans together with?)
V: Bien sûr.
(Together with them?)
V: Bien sûr. Il y avait la 2e division américaine. C’est la fameuse division qui a sur l’épaule une tête d’indien. Vous avez vu avec une étoile,
(Of course, there were Korean soldiers. Let’s see. All regiments came under the 2nd American Division.)
c’est la “second to none”. Dans cette division, il y a plusieurs régiments. L’un des régiments s’appelle le 23e régiment d’infanterie. Twenty-three regiment infanterie. Dans ce regiment il y a 4 bataillons, un bataillon français et euh… un bataillon Sud-coréen, et deux bataillons américains. Les 4 bataillons
(It’s famous with its ensign, a profile of Indian’s head put into a big star, and with its motto as well: “Second to None.” In this division there were several regiments. The 23rd Infantry Regiment was one of them. Twenty-third Infantry Regiment. In this regiment there were four battalions: a French battalion, a South Korean battalion, and two other American battalions.)
forment un régiment. Et il y a une anécdote. Les Américains aiment bien les grandes représentations sur un terre-plein. Quand on rassemblait le régiment il y avait les 4 bataillons rassemblés, et le général, devant chaque bataillon il y avait le chef de bataillon. Et le général il disait « faites présenter les armes ». Le 1er bataillon le colonel se retournait et disait « First bataillon présent »,
(The four battalions form a regiment. And there is an anecdote. The U.S. Army liked to hold a military review on a drill ground. One day, a regiment review was held. The four battalions were therefore assembled respectively. In front of each battalion, there stood a battalion commander. The general shouted, “Present arms!” The colonel of the 1st battalion turned toward their unit and shouted, “First battalion. Present arms!”)
[VETERAN’S MIMICRY] Hap, clac-clac-clac ! Ça claquait. Le second bataillon présentait les armes. Le colonel se retournait « Second bataillon présent » Hap, clac-clac-clac ! Impéccable. Après c’était les Français. « Bataillon français présenter armes » Shut-plou-paf-paf [VETERAN’S MIMICRY OF A BUSTLE] Les soldats français tenaient mal leurs armes dans les présentations, ils étaient ridicules.
([VETERAN’S MIMICRY] Hap, clack-clack-clack! It was impeccable. The second battalion’s turn came around. The colonel turned around and shouted, “Second battalion, Present arms!” Hap, clack-clack-clack! Impeccable. Then it was the French battalion’s turn. The colonel shouted, “French battalion. Present arms!” Shut-plou-paf-paf [VETERAN’S MIMICRY OF A BUSTLE] The French soldiers did not hold their weapons well in this review, they were ridiculous.)
Puis après on attendait le bataillon coréen. [MIMICRY OF AN ORDERING IN KOREAN] Ajou-eu-hi oui les voilà. Clic-clac-clac ! C’était le bataillon coréen. [FANFARE] La musique qui commençait. [LAUGHS] C’était le moment militaire aussi ça. Bon souvenir.
Then we were waiting for the Korean battalion’s turn. [MIMICRY OF AN ORDERING IN KOREAN] “Ajou-eu-hi!(받들어 총)” Click-clack-clack! It was the Korean battalion. [FANFARE] They played music. [LAUGHS] It was one of the military moments. Good memory.
Int.: 한국군을 잘 알고 있었다고요. 예를 들어서 지금 하나의 에피소드는 미군 2사단의 23 보병연대가 있었는데,
그 밑에는 4개의 대대가 있었답니다. 그래서 이제 그 사열식을 지금 설명하시는 거였어요. 두 개의 미군대대. 그 다음에 프랑스대대 그 다음에 한국대대가 있었는데, 미군이랑 한국군은 아주 아주 굉장히 멋있게 그 사열식에 참석했는데 프랑스대대는 조금 엉망으로 했다고 합니다.
(He knew the Korean army well. He has told an episode. The 23rd Infantry Regiment belonged to the 2nd Division of the U.S. Army. There were four battalions in the 23rd Infantry Regiment. The episode depicts the scene of a military review they passed. The 23rd Infantry Regiment consisted of two U.S. battalions, a French battalion, and a Korean battalion. Usually, the U.S. and Korean troops attended the review very orderly, while the French battalion was very messy.)
Int.: Vous avez bataillé avec les soldats Coréens donc. (So, you fought with the Korean soldiers.)
V: Ah oui, il y en avait dans le bataillon. D’ailleurs,
quand on se réunit à Paris, vous assistez à nos réunions, on avait toujours des combattants coréens qui étaient à la Légion. (Ah yes. There were some in the battalion. Besides, every time we gather in Paris to attend the ceremony, there are always some Korean soldiers invited who were from the French Foreign Legion.)
Int.: 아! 그래서 한국군이랑도 같이 싸웠다고 하고, 지금도 프랑스 여러가지 이제 참전행사 때 한국인 외인부대원들이 초청되는데 그들도 이렇게 이때와 연결이 되어 있습니다. (Oh, I see! They fought with Korean military. Even now, the Korean military, served actually in the French Foreign Legion, are invited to every ceremony organized by the veterans association in France. Their presence goes back to that time.)
V: Le plaisir pour moi lorsque nous
rassemblons à Paris en octobre. Nous allons ranimer la Flamme à l’Arc de Triomphe. Mon plaisir, c’est qu’il y a des touristes, coréens ou japonais qui ignorent tout, qui nous interrogent, « que vous faites là, et pourquoi vous êtes avec… » Alors on leur rappelle la guerre de Corée.
(It is a pleasure for me to pass the memorial ceremony held at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris in every October. We rekindle the Flame dedicated to the unknown soldiers. There are tourists, either Korean or Japanese, who know nothing about the event and ask us, “What are you doing here? Why you are with the Korean?” It was my pleasure to remind them of the Korean War.)
Int.: 단장의 능선 전투 기념식이 10월 달에 개선문에서 열리는데, 그때 이제 불꽃 점화식을 합니다.
그러면은 거기 이제 그 한국인이나 일본인 관광객들이 무슨 행사인지를 물어보곤 한답니다. 그때 자신이 당시 한국전에 참전 했던 얘기를 말씀을 해 주시는데 그것이 굉장히 자랑스럽다고 하십니다. (He speaks of the memorial ceremony for the battle of Heartbreak Ridge which is held at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris in every October. There, we rekindle the Flame dedicated to the unknown soldiers, paying tribute to the fallen in the Korean War. Around us, there are many tourists, either Korean or Japanese, who ask us what the event stands for. He is very proud of telling them about his participation in the Korean War at that time.)
I: 그 고아로 태어나셔서 정말 많은 고생을 하시고, 그 환경을 벗어나고 싶어서 군대에도 자원을 하셨는데, 소원을 이루셨습니까?
(You were born as an orphan, and you suffered a lot from it. You volunteered for the military because you wanted to get out of the situation. Then, did you finally realize what you wished?)
d’après, après votre vécu personnel en tant qu’orphelin vous aviez vraiment une envie de quitter le pays, donc est-ce que vous avez réussi ? enfin vos voeux ont été, comment dirais-je, atteints ?
(You suffered a lot from the stern realities since your mother had abandoned you. You really wanted to overcome the situation. Then, did you succeed? Did you finally achieve your goal?)
V: Oui. Je n’avais pas, au départ, je n’avais pas de voeux, puisque je savais que je ne valais rien, qu’on ne me faisait
que répéter que j’étais un voyou, que j’étais un voleur. Donc je n’espérais rien. Mais quand moi, je vais vous raconter quand même une histoire. C’est que lorsque je suis rentré de Corée, on m’a demandé où je voulais aller, dans quel régiment en France ? J’ai dit non, je ne veux pas vivre en France. Il y a pas de place pour moi en France. Il n’y a pas de place pour moi, j’ai pas ma place. Donc,
(I can say yes. Originally, I didn’t have any wishes, since I thought I was worthless. I was always told that you are worth no more than a criminal or a thief. So I hoped nothing. I got a story to tell you. When I returned from Korea, I was asked to which regiment in France I wanted to be assigned? I said, “No, I don’t want to live in France. There is no place for me in France. There is no place for me. I have no place.”)
je suis parti à l’Afrique du Nord, je suis parti au Maroc. Et là, j’ai passé tous les examens que peut passer un sous-officier. Ce n’est pas bien ce que je raconte parce que je me fais honneur. J’aime pas qu’on me prenne pour quelqu’un de prétentieux. Et rapidement j’ai eu tous les examens, et les officiers ont considéré que je pouvais devenir officier. Mais j’avais quitté l’école le collège à 14 ans.
(So, I went to North Africa, namely, in Morocco. And there, I passed all the exams a non-commissioned officer can pass. It isn’t in order to boast myself. I don’t like to be taken by someone pretentious. Once I passed all the exams, the officers thought that I could become an officer. But I quitted school at fourteen.)
Ils m’ont dit « tu peux faire, tu peux faire ». Et je disais « non je veux pas, je veux pas, je veux pas, je veux rester sous-officier ». Et un jour un capitaine m’a dit, « dis-nous pourquoi tu ne veux pas ». J’ai dit « je crois que je suis condamné. J’ai eu, j’ai été accusé d’un vol il y a longtemps, et je crois que c’était encore en l’air, je crois peut-être que j’ai un casier judiciaire je ne sais pas ». Et ce capitaine
(They told me, “You can do it. You can do it.” And I replied, “No, I don’t want it. I don’t want it. I don’t want it. I want to remain a non-commissioned officer.” Then, one day, a captain said to me, “Tell me why you don’t want it.” I said, “I was sentenced for theft. A long time ago, I had been accused of theft. And I’m afraid I may be classified as a guilty man. I don’t know there is a criminal record still alive.”)
a dit « il faut pas en rester là ». Il a appelé un officier qui avait fait du droit qui m’a demandé de raconter mon histoire, Il me dit « raconte ton histoire ». Alors je lui raconte, mais il me dit « c’est pas possible, vous avez été condamné ou pas, mais c’est pas possible il ne faut pas rester comme ça, il faut aller rentrer en France et aller voir. Ah ça s’est passé à Reims, à Reims c’est ce qui se passe ».
(The captain said, “You must not give up though.” He called an officer who handles the legal matter. This man asked me to tell the whole story, so I told him all. He told me, “It’s not possible. You should have been condemned or not. There is no middle. It is not possible for the matter to be settled up like your case. You must not stay like this. You must go back to France and check it out. It happened in Reims. So, you need to go to Reims and check out what really happened.”)
Et je suis allé à Reims, et je suis allé au commissariat de police. Je me souvenais du nom d’un des inspecteurs qui m’avait interrogé qui s’appelait Mercereau. Et il me dit je vais au commissariat de police et je demande à voir à l’inspecteur Mercereau. On me dit le commissaire principal Mercereau. 8 ans avait passé et le colonel… le policier était devenu…
(And I went to Reims, and I went to the police station. I was remembering the name of one of the inspectors: Mercereau. At the police station, I said I want to see an inspector Mercereau. They called him the chief commissioner Mercereau. For the last eight years, the then policeman had become the chief commissioner.)
Mais il arrive pas avant 10h. A 10h j’arrive en uniforme et je vais dans son bureau, il me dit « c’est vous militaire qui voulait me voir pourquoi ? » Je lui dis « je m’appelle Michel Ozwald ». Il me dit « qu’est-ce que vous voulez que ça me fasse ? » Je dis « le vol de la pâtisserie Muridole, le cambriolage ». Il s’étonne et il me dit « c’est toi, et tu as réussi ta vie tout ça. Les galons tout ». Il n’en revenait pas. Et il me dit « qu’est-ce que tu veux ? »
(But they said he doesn’t come to office before 10 a.m. At 10 a.m., I arrived in uniform, and then went to his office. He says to me “Is that you soldier who wanted to see me? Why?” I told him “My name is Michel Ozwald.” He said, “What do you want to me by that saying?” I said, “It’s the name of a thief of Muridole pastry shop.” He was amazed and said to me, “It’s you? You succeeded in life. All the stripes…” He couldn’t believe it. After all, he said, “What do you want?”)
Je dis « je veux savoir. Est-ce que je suis toujours accusé ? ». « Mais pas du tout » il me dit, « on a trouvé le voleur, il y a longtemps qu’on a trouvé le voleur ». Et bien Madame ça fait de chacun dire ça, tous les gens qui m’accusaient, la police, la gendarmerie, les directions, tout ça qui m’ont frappé, qui m’ont emmené partout, quand on a découvert le voleur, personne n’a dit, et ce pauvre gars il est là-bas en Corée, et cherche à mourir tellement il a du chagrin, personne, personne
n’a bougé. Ca m’a gonflé, et puis j’ai fait l’école d’officiers, et puis j’ai fini colonel. Voilà.
(I say, “I want to know whether I am still charged with that crime?” “No, not a bit”, he replied, “We’ve caught the real thief. We’ve caught the thief a long time ago.” Madam, it’s too sad to tell you this story. Everyone had accused me then; the police, the gendarmerie, the directions, all beated me, took me all about. They caught the real thief; nevertheless, nobody said it to me. This poor guy went to Korea at the peril of his life. He was in pain, but everybody was immovable. It encouraged me. I went to school to be an officer, and then I finished colonel. Voila.)
Int.: 처음에는 소원이 없었다고 할 수 있습니다. 왜냐면은 정말 가치 없는 삶이라고 느껴졌기 때문입니다. 범인으로 누명까지 씌워졌고 희망이 없었습니다. 단지 정말 프랑스에서는 아무런 자리가 나에 대한 자리가 없다고 생각해서 한국까지 갔던 것이고,
(He had no wish because he felt his life really worthless. People around him victimized him accusing him as a thief. There was no hope. He really thought that in France there was no place for him. So he went to Korea, and then still to abroad.)
다른 나라를 전전했는데, 한국전이 끝나고 들어왔을 때 프랑스에 남으라고 했는데 프랑스에 남아있기 싫었습니다. 그래서 아프리카에서 부사관으로써 계속 근무를 했는데, 잘 근무를 하니까 주변에서 왜 장교가 돼 보지 않겠냐고 이렇게 주위에서 많이 권유가 있었답니다. 그렇지만 본인은 범인 누명까지 썼는데 어떻게 내가 장교가 될 수 있느냐, 말도 안 됐다. 한 지휘관이 프랑스에 와봐라. 와서 한번 그것을
(When he came back from the Korean War, he was asked whether or not he would stay in France. He didn’t want to remain in France, so, he continued to serve in Africa as a non-commissioned officer. However, his excellence in disposition received many recommendations around him. The officers ask him why you don’t become an officer. He thought it isn’t possible because he had even been accused of a criminal, he couldn’t be an officer. However, a commander kept persuading him with a counsel to go and clean it up in France.)
깨끗하게 해보자, 찾아보자 했더니, 그래서 옛날에 살던 랭스시의 경찰서로 가가지고 경찰국장을 만나서 내가 이러 저러했던 사람인데, 어 지금 내가 여전히 누명을 쓰고 있느냐, 그 제과점 도난사건에 대해서. 그러더니 말도 안 된다, 이미 예전에 진범이 잡혀서 당신의 기록은 이미 벌써 다 없어졌다고 했답니다. 그때 너무 아무도 나한테 그걸 얘기 준 사람이 없었구나. 그래 가지고 그 때 어떤
삶의 전환이 있어서 그때 공부를 해서 장교가 되었다고 합니다.
(He made his mind and tried to find it up. He went to the police station in Reims where the robbery toke place. He met the chief officer in the police, and disclosed his identity, his name and the crime in which he had been involved. The chief officer said that the real thief had been caught a long time ago, and your records are already expired. He was grieved at the fact that there couldn’t be anyone who ever gave him a tip about it. Meanwhile, that was an important turning point which compelled him to newly think about his life. He entered into a military school for the officer, and retired from service by colonel.)
V: Oh, mon Dieu!. Je me serais bien passé ça. J’aurais bien aimé comme tout le monde.
(Oh my God! Would that I have lived an uneventful life. Would that I have lived like everyone else.)
Int.: 다른 사람이 되었으면, 다른 사람과 같은 삶을 살았으면 얼마나 좋았을까 하는 생각을 합니다. 가끔은.
(I think sometimes how much better it would be if I had lived an ordinary life like everyone else.)
I: 그렇지만, 장교로 언제 제대를 하셨죠?
(When did you retire as an officer?)
Int.: Quand est-ce que vous avez quitté l’armée ?
(When did you leave the army?)
V: J’ai quitté l’armée euh… oh il y a longtemps. J’ai quitté l’armée en… j’avais 52 ans. Ça fait 30 ans que j’ai quitté l’armée. (I left the army uh… oh a long time ago. I left the army when I was 52. It has been thirty years since I left the army.)
Int.: 30년 되셨습니다. 52세에 군을 떠나셨으니까요. (He left the army when he was 52. So, it has been thirty years since he left the army.)
V: Mais j’ai fait… après, j’ai voulu servir mon pays quand même. Donc, j’ai fait de la prévention routière pendant 20 ans. J’ai empêché les jeunes de mourir sur la route.
(But I still had wanted to serve my country anyhow. So, I did road safety for twenty years. I prevented young people from dying on the road.)
Int.: 그래서 이제 전역을 한 다음에도 여기 프랑스의 교통사고 하도 많이 나서 젊은 애들이 많이 죽는 것을 보고 자원봉사를 이제 20년 동안 교통 치안을 위해서 했습니다.
(So, even after he was discharged, he volunteered for the road safety for twenty years. He saw a lot of car accidents in France, so he wanted to prevent young people from dying on the road.)
I: 그 한국을 전혀 모르셨고, 또 고아로 너무 힘드셨고, 그럼에도 불구하고 이제는 한국을 제 2의 조국이라고까지 얘기를 하시는데 이거 도대체 어떻게 설명할 수 있어요? 운명같은 스토리인데, 선생님은 이 모든
거를 어떻게 생각을 하고 계세요?
(Since you had been abandoned, you had to face with so many hardships in your life. You fought for a country you didn’t know at all. Now, you consider this country Korea as your second motherland. How on earth can you explain all this? It’s like a story of fate. How do you understand all this?)
Int.: Comment vous pouvez résumer votre vie parce que vous étiez orphelin mais maintenant.
(How do you sum up your life? At first, you were an orphan, but now…)
V: Pas orphelin, abandonné. (Not an orphan, but an abandoned.)
Int.: Oui, abandonné. Et vous avez quitté l’armée en tant que colonel. Vous appelez la Corée comme votre deuxième patrie. Alors comment vous pouvez résumer votre vie ?
(Yes, abandoned. But, you discharged from service as colonel. Moreover, you call Korea your second homeland. How can you sum up your life?)
V: Je dis que j’ai fait un rétablissement.
(I say I made a recovery.)
Mais… et que j’ai réussi. Des gens m’ont aidé. Des officiers m’ont éstimé. Mais c’est quand même trop cher payé, c’est trop cher payé. J’ai pas demandé à vivre moi, j’ai pas demandé à vivre. Je vais vous dire je suis fâché avec dieu. Les enfants de l’assistance publique devaient aller à l’église. J’ai fait le catéchisme, j’étais enfant de cœur j’ai tout fait. J’ai prié le dieu, j’ai cru en dieu.
(Despite all the things, I succeeded. People have helped me. Officers have estimated me without prejudices. But my success is too expensive to pay, it’s too expensive. I don’t recommend living it. I was angry with God. Children in a public assistance had to go to church. I did catechism. I devoted myself to the faith. I did everything I could. I prayed to God. I believed in God.)
Et quand j’ai vu qu’il ne s’occupait pas de moi, quand ma mère nourrisse est morte que j’adorais, ma mère nourrice est morte, personne autour de moi. J’ai pas le droit d’aller l’enterrer. J’ai eu un chagrin fou c’est la seule personne qui m’ait fait du bien, qui m’ait appris à être quelqu’un d’honnête. Et bien trois semaines après la mort de cette femme, alors que je suis dans le malheur et dans le chagrin, on m’accusait un vol.
(I realised however that He doesn’t care about me. When my beloved nursemaid was dead, there was no one around me. But I wasn’t even able to be present her funeral. It was great torture to me, for she was the only one who was nice to me, taught to me to be an earnest man. To make me more miserable, three weeks after she passed away, I, overwhelmed with grief, was falsely accused for a robbery.)
Ca fait beaucoup dans la vie. Avec tout le monde qui vous montre du doigt, qui vous… J’ai dit « Dieu n’existe pas ». Bon on m’a appris que Dieu aimait les pauvres, les enfants et les malheureux. Je pense que j’étais pas sur la liste.
(It’s too many miseries to be put into a man’s life. Surronded by people pointing their fingers at me, I said, “God doesn’t exist.” Well, I was taught that God loves the poor, children, and unfortunate. I thought I wasn’t on the list though.)
Int.: 성공한 삶이라고 할 수 있지만, 그렇지만 굉장히 힘든 삶이었기도 합니다. 왜냐하면 신에게 많이 빌었습니다. 그때 그 고아들은 정말 교회 가는게
의무 상황이었기 때문에, 항상 교회에 가가지고 많이 기도도 하고 그랬는데요. 가장 사랑했던 단 한사람, 사랑했던 그 유모마저 돌아가셨을 때, 그 시기에 제과점 도난 사건이 있었습니다. 사람들은 장례식에도 참석하지 못하게 했답니다. 그래 가지고 이 세상에 고아에 대한 이런 그 아주 정말 나쁜 시선을 던지는 이 사회에
굉장히 아주 그 분노를 느꼈습니다. 단지 물론 이렇게 성공한 데에는 지휘관의 자신에 대한 신뢰라든지 어떤 그런 여러가지 때문에 성공을 하긴 했지만, 개인의 삶은 좀 굉장히 힘든 그런 삶이었습니다.
(It would be a successful life, but it was also a very difficult one. I prayed a lot to God. The orphans were obligated to go to church, so they always went to church and prayed a lot. When my nursemaid, the only person I loved, died, pople didn’t let me be present her funeral. Moreover, I was falsely accused to have robbed the bakery subsequently. So, I felt very, very angry with the society that threw the orphans into such a miserable world. I succeeded indebted to the commander’s trust in me and many other things. However my personal life was full of misery and difficulty.)
V: Alors vous voyez, si je regardais derrière moi, je peux dire que je suis content de moi. J’ai réussi, c’est vrai. Mais comme je vous l’ai dit mais… à quel prix.
(If I look back upon my whole life, then I can say I’m happy with myself. I succeeded, it’s true. However, as I told you, its cost was too high.)
V: J’étais pas obligé de passer par… par toutes ces misères pour vivre ça. Mais ce qui me fait plaisir c’est les récompenses que j’ai. J’ai écrit des livres, mes livres se vendent. Tous les gens qui m’ont connu veulent mes livres. Je raconte ma vie militaire, ma vie civile, je raconte tout ça. Et je reçois encore, j’ai reçu une lettre ces jours-ci. Je voulais vous la montrer. Un ancien qui se rappelle de moi et qui se rappelle…
euh… de bons souvenirs, il était heureux de service sous mes ordres parce que j’ai toujours défendu mes soldats, bien entendu. J’étais jusqu’à des fois aux assises défendre un soldat qui avait commis un meutre, lorsque je suis présenté aux assises.
(On the one hand, I wouldn’t have had to go through all these miserable experiences. On the other, what make me happy are the rewards given to me. I’ve written two books about my life story. Everyone who knew me encouraged to write those books in which I told the military life, and the civilian life respectively. I told all of those in my books. I still get a letter from their readers. I wanted to tell you this. One of the veterans who have a good memory toward me wrote that he was happy to serve under me. I always defended my soldiers. I went so far as to take the witness stand in order to defend my soldier who had committed a murder.)
Int.: 여기서 성공한 삶이라고 할 수 있습니다. 그리고 이 삶에 굉장히 만족합니다 그렇지만 이 성공한 삶을 갖기 위해 너무 많은 값을 치렀다 하는 생각을 하고 있습니다. 그렇지만 보상도 있습니다. 예를 들어서 두 권의 책 (Douloureux cheminement , Parcours d’un combattant )을 냈는데,
이 두 권의 책을 읽고 감동을 받았다는 그런 편지들을 지금 최근에도 받았습니다. 예를 들어서 부사관이었을 때 많은 장병들을 따뜻하게, 이렇게 뭐랄까요, 도와주기도 했습니다. 살인의 누명을 쓴 사람이 있었는데 그 부하를 또 변호해주기도 했답니다.
(On the one hand, it was a successful life, and he is very satisfied with his life. On the other, he thinks that it’s too high to pay. There are of course the rewards. For example, he published two books (Doulureux cheminement , Parcours d’un combattant ), and he receive many letter from the readers who were impressed from those books. When he was on service in the army, he was always on the part of the soldiers. As one of his soldiers had committed a murder, he went so far as to defend him.)
I: 이 책을 좀 이렇게 카메라에 보이게
하시고 뭐에 관해서 쓰신건지 간단하게 설명을 해 주십시오.
(Please hold the book in front of the camera, and briefly tell what it is about.)
Int.: Vous pouvez en fait montrer donc votre livre devant le caméra et puis nous raconter en quelques lignes de quoi s’agit-il ?
(Please hold the book in front of the camera, and tell what it is about in a few lines.)
V: C’est mon livre, c’est ma carrière militaire. Elle démarre donc à 18 ans et jusqu’à ma retraite. Je raconte ma vie militaire je viens de vous en parler en partie. Il y a
des détails, il y a des photos. Il y a des photos, notamment des photos de la Corée. J’y vais de tout mon cœur et la vérité.
(It’s my book. It’s about my military career. Therefore, it starts from my age of eighteen and finish with my retirement. In this book, I tell about my military life of which I have told you in part a while ago. You will find further details in this book. There are photographs as well, including those of Korea. I composed it all my heart and with truthfulness.)
Int.: 이 책은 제 군인으로써의 삶을 적은 책입니다. 18세에 입대해서 전역할때까지의 군인의 삶을 싣고 있는데, 그 안에는 사진도 있고, 여러 가지 이제 전투에 대한 자세한 얘기도 있습니다. 물론 한국전 당시의 사진들도 있습니다.
(This book is about his life as a soldier. It contains the story of his military career from enlistment at the age of eighteen to retirement. As well as the detailed stories about the various battles, there are pictures. Of course, there are pictures taken during the Korean War.)
I: 한국전에 관한 사진을 좀 보여 주실래요?
(Could you show us some pictures of the Korean War in this book?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous pouvez montrer des photos de la guerre de Corée s’il y en a?
(Could you show us some pictures of the Korean War?)
I: 설명을 좀 해주세요.
(With some comments as well, please.)
Int.: Alors vous pouvez expliquer les photos ? Je lis. La première photo, avec votre camarade
(So could you explain the photo? The first photo, I read, “With a comrade Deslacourt”.)
Int.: 전우와 함께 찍은 사진.
(A photo taken with a comrade named Deslacourt.)
V: Oui, on est sur le front. C’est relativement calme et on fait la toilette. on a mis, on a installé nos casques, puis on met de l’eau et on se lave.
(Yes, we were on the front line. It was relatively quiet, so we washed up. We made use of our helmet as a washbasin: we pour water into it and then wash up.)
Int.: 그래서 이게 친구분과 같이 이렇게 편하게 있는, 휴식하는 모습인데 그렇지만은, Mais, il est tué deux jours plus tard. Il est tué 2 jours plus tard.
(Though this photo depicts two soldiers in a relaxation, this comrade will have been killed just two days later. The comrade Deslacourt was killed just two days after he had taken the picture with his friend.)
Int.: 그렇지만 이 친구분이 이틀 후에 전사하십니다. (However, this friend dies two days later.)
V: C’est le garçon que je vous ai raconté tout à l’heure qu’on a ramené dans mon blockhaus.
(This is the boy whom I told you previously that we brought him back to our barrack.)
Int.: 좀 전에 아까 힘든…,
(This is the boy whom I told you previously that we brought him back to our barrack.)
I: 애로우-헤드 전투. 여기 애로우-헤드 전투가 있는데 직접 찍으신 사진인가요?
(It must be about the battle of Arrow-head. Are these pictures taken by you?)
Int.: Par exemple, il y a une photo de bataille d’Arrow-Head, la bataille la plus difficile dont vous avez parlé,
(That one is a photo of the battle of Arrow-Head battle, the toughest battle you mentioned,)
Int.: Arrow-Head. La photo était prise par vous ? Non?
(Yes, Arrow-Head. Are the photos taken by you? No?)
V: Si. Si. C’est la côte de 181.
(Yes. Yes. It’s the photo of Hill 181.)
Int.: 181 고지의 사진입니다.
(It’s the photo of Hill 181.)
V: Et l’autre fois quand on est retourné en Corée, on m’a amené là-bas.
(One day when we went back to Korea, I have been to there again.)
Int.: 그래서 나중에 다시 한국을 방문하셨을 때, 사람들이 자신을 여기에를 다시 데려갔다고 합니다.
(So later, when he visited Korea again, people took him back there.)
V: Arrow-Head est toujours chez les Nord-coréens mais sur une montagne à côté tout près on le voit.
(Arrow-Head is now in North Korea, but we were able to see it on a mountain nearby.)
북한에 속해있는데, 옆 산에서 이렇게 (볼 수 있었다고요.)
(Arrowhead Hill belongs to North Korea, but from a mountain next to it, he was able to see it.)
V: J’ai revu mon bunker.
(I looked at my bunker again.)
Int.: 본인이 있었던 벙커까지 볼 수 있었습니다.
(He looked at his bunker again.)
V: On était équipé, équipé complètement avec les vestes, les casques. Il fallait se cacher. Mais les anciens combattants nous ont ammené à voir ça. Et tout le monde n’y va pas.
(For the sake of the event, then, we had to reappear fully equipped: equipped with jackets and helmets. The bunker must be hidden. However, the veterans found it out and took us there to look at it. Not everyone was there.)
Int.: 그 때 당시에 그 지역을 다 보실 수 있었다고요.
(At that time, I was able to see the whole area.)
I: 감회가 어떠셨어요?
(How did you feel?)
Int.: Alors, quel était votre
souvenir de ce moment ?
(So what was your feeling at that moment?)
V: C’était terrible. C’est l’émotion.
(It was fantastic. It’s emotional.)
Int.: 만감이 교차했습니다.
(It’s an emotional experience.)
(Please explain the photos to us.)
Int.: Donc il y a d’autres photos des soldats Sud-coréens m’offraient du café.
(I read, “South Korean soldiers offers me a coffee.”)
V: Voilà. Je suis avec des soldats coréeens. On est sur le front
et il m’offre un café.
(That’s it. I was there with the Korean soldiers. We were on the frontline. They offered me a coffee.)
Int.: (왼쪽 상단) 첫번째 사진은 한국군이 커피를 주고 있는 장면입니다. (왼쪽 하단) 두번째 사진은,
((Top left) This picture is a scene where the Korean soldiers offers him a coffee. (Bottom left) The second picture is,)
I: 가평이시죠 ?
(It’s Gapyeong, isn’t it?)
Int.: Au camp de Gapyung au repos.
(“Resting at the camp in Gapyeong.”)
V: C’est ça.
Int.: 가평에서 이렇게 휴식도 하고, 전사자들도 묻고 하는 이런 장면입니다.
(This is a scene where people take a rest in Gapyeong.)
I: 그리고, (오른쪽 상단 셋째 사진에서는) 참호에도 서 계시네요.
((Top right) In this picture, you’re standing in the trench.)
Int.: C’est en avant-poste, aussi dans la tranchée.
(It’s in the trench of the outpost.)
V: Voilà. Là, c’est le T-Bone.
(Here we are. It’s the T-Bone.)
Int.: 여기가 티-본이라고 합니다.
(It’s the T-Bone.)
V: T-Bone, je suis dans la tranchée de T-Bone. (T-Bone, I’m in a trench of the T-Bone.)
Int.: 티-본 참호였고요. 마지막은. La dernière…
(It was a trench of T-Bone. The last one is…)
I: 이건 인도차이나.
(It’s in Indochina.)
Int.: C’est en Indochine.
(It’s in Indochina.)
I: 다시 설명을 좀 해주세요.
(Please explain the pictures.)
Int.: 1968년도에 그러니까 그 군사열식을 할 때 드골 대통령 앞에서 대위로서 참석하는 장면입니다 대위인데 가장 훈장을 많이 받위로써 지금 사열식에 참석했을 때 사진입니다.
(It’s a scene of a grand parade in 1968 where he, as a captain, is standing in front of the President Charles de Gaulle.)
V: Il y a une règle.
(There is a rule.)
Voilà le général de Gaulle là. Il y a une règle. Le drapeau du régiment ne peut être baissé que devant le président de la République. Donc l’officier qui porte le drapeau…
(This is the General de Gaulle. There is a rule. The flag of the regiment can be lowered nowhere but in front of the President of the Republic. Thereore, the flag-bearer does like this.)
[SCENE SWITCHED: NOW, VETERAN IS HOLDING ANOTHER BOOK]
V: C’est ma vie.
(This book is about my civil life.)
Int.: 이것은 나의 삶을 기록한 것입니다.
(This is a record of my civil life.)
V: Mon origine de la naissance jusqu’à mon mariage et jusqu’à… ce que je devienne
quelqu’un de respectable. Je suis venu de rien, je viens d’en bas, je suis mal traité, mal vu, on me fait souffrir, mais je finis avec la Légion d’honneur. Je finis ma vie ave la Légion d’honneur. Je pense que ça va comme ça.
(This book starts from my very origin, and through my marriage, it finish when I finally became a respectable man. I came from nothing. I came from below. I was badly treated, and people frowned at me. They toke me nothing but sufferings. However, I close my life with the Légion d’honneur. I came to an end with the Légion d’honneur, the supreme Order of France. This is, I think, the outline of the book.)
Int.: 이것은 나의 삶입니다. 출생, 정말 아무것도 아닌 하찮은 그런 삶에서부터 시작해서 레지옹 도뇌르라고 하는 프랑스 최고의 훈장을 받기까지
나의 삶을 다룬 책입이다.
(This is a book about his civil life. It covers a span of his life, from the humble birth to the reward of the Légion d’honneur, the supreme Order in France.)
I: 어느 분이 본인이세요? 지금 두 명이 있는데? (Which one is you among those two boys?)
Int.: Il y a deux garçons. Lequel?
(There are two boys in this picture. Which one is you?)
V: C’est moi.
(This is me.)
V: Le grand.
(The taller one.)
Int.: Le grand ?
(The taller one?)
V: [POINTING AT A BOY APPEARED IN THE FRONT COVER OF HIS BOOK] C’est moi.
Int.: 더 큰 아이가 본인입니다.
(The taller boy is him.)
V: Voyez ? On est habité, habillé pauvre dans une maison pauvre, vous voyez ?
(Can you see? Poorly dressed, we lived in a poor house.)
Int.: 아주 가난한 집 앞에서 빈곤한 모습으로 서 있습니다.
(Poorly dressed, they lived in a poor house.)
I: 굉장히 부유해 보인다고 전해주세요.
(Please tell him that they look pretty rich.)
Int.: Mais vous avez l’air plutôt riche.
(But you look pretty rich.)
V: Ah non. On avait des vêtements
usés. Il faut pas oublier que c’est la guerre. Et moi je suis né en 32, en 40 c’était la guerre. Nous avons, nous habitons en Picardie donc il faut fuir devant les Allemands. On se sauve, on part et ma mère nourrice part avec les 6 petits à pied avec des sacs. Nous avons été rattrapés par les soldats allemands, je raconte tout ça dans le livre. Heureusement les soldats allemands que nous avons rencontrés c’était pas les premiers combattants, c’était des personnages
d’un certaine âge déjà. Ils nous ont pas mal traités.
(Oh, no. We had on clothes worn out. Don’t forget that it was wartime. As I was born in ’32, and in ’40, we were at war with Germany. As we had lived in Picardie, a northern city of France, we had to seek refugee from the German invasion. All citizens toke flight. My nursing mother had to flee with her six little ones with bags. We were overtaken by the German soldiers. I put all of the stories in the book. Fortunately, the German soldiers we met were not the firstline combatant. They were already of a certain age. They didn’t treat us badly.)
Int.: 굉장히 가난한 시절이었습니다. 더군다나 그때 40년은 전쟁 중이었기 때문에 그때 유모가 6명이 아이들 데리고 가야 되는 그런 상황입니다.
(We were badly off. Moreover, in ’40, as we were at war with Germany, we had to flee from the German envation. My nursing mother had to flee with her six little ones with bags.)
V: [VETERAN READS OUT THE FIRST PARAGRAPHE WRITTEN IN THE BACK COVER OF HIS BOOK] Si vous voulez, « C’est l’intolérable parcours d’un enfant de l’assistance publique qui a eu la particularité de réaliser, dès son plus jeune âge, à la différence de ces infortunés camarades, sa condition d’enfant
pas comme les autres. Son itinéraire est exceptionnel. Les souffrances physiques et morales endurées pendant son enfance et surtout pendant son adolescence et le début de sa vie sont inimaginable. »
(If you like, [Following is the first paragraphe of the back cover of his book, Doulureux cheminement (2012)] “It is the intolerable journey of a child of public assistance who had the particularity of realizing, from an early age, unlike his unfortunate children, his condition as a child not like the others. His road is exceptional. The physical and moral sufferings he had to endure throughout his childhood, but especially during his adolescence and the beginning of his life are unimaginable.”)
Int.: 참혹한 어려움을 육체적인, 정신적인 고통을 겪었던 어린시절부터 성인이 될 때까지 그런 삶을 적었습니다.
(He wrote down in his book the terrible hardships he had to suffer from childhood to adulthood, both physically and mentally.)
V: C’est dommage que il ne sait pas lire le français, autrement je l’aurais offert.
(It’s much to be regretted that you cannot read French. If not, I would have offered it.)
Int.: 교수님께서 불어를 읽으실 수 있었으면
참 좋았을 텐데.
(It’s much to be regretted that you cannot read French.)
Int.: Pour conclure notre interview, vous pouvez nous dire s’il y a uns épisode des batailles durant les batailles de guerre, ou bien est-ce que vous auriez un message à passer justement à l’occasion de 70e anniversaire du déclenchement de la guerre de Corée l’année prochaine,
est-ce que vous avez un message à passer au peuple coréen?
(Before conclude our interview, do you have any other episode further to tell, or else do you have any message to leave? Next year, we will celebrate the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War. Do you have a message for the Korean people?)
V: Bien sûr. Je félicite le peuple coréen d’avoir… euh… être sorti de la condition où il était et d’avoir résisté parce que on parle beaucoup d’efforts des nations unis qui ont fait la guerre, mais les Coréens ils ont participé, et… ils ont perdu beaucoup de monde. Euh… malgré ça,
Ils se sont redressés et ont fait de leur pays un pays honorable dans lequel il fait bon vivre. C’est ça c’est ça que je me souviens.
(Yes, of course. I congratulate the Korean people for having come out of the condition they were once in, and for having well struggled in the war. People praise the efforts of the U.N. for waging war, but the Korean people also participated in the war, and they were badly damaged. Despite that, they succeeded in restoring their country, and made their country honorable and livable. This is what I remember.)
Int.: 이 살기 좋은 지금의 한국을 만든 한국인의 그 저항정신, 지금 이런 성공한 한국인에 대해 아주 큰 찬사를 보냅니다.
(I would like to express my great appreciation for the Korean people, whose spirit of resistance made their country honorable and livable. I congratulate them for their success.)
V: Un de mes camarades qui est mort l’année dernière a voulu que ses cendres soient jetés
en Corée. Je ne sais pas si vous êtes au courant.
(One of my comrades, who died last year, wanted his ashes to be spreaded in Korea. I don’t know if you are aware of him.)
Int.: M. Le Houx? (M. Le Houx?)
V: Je ne sais plus. Il y avait un voyage de dizaine d’anciens. Ils sont allés jeter ses cendres. Je ne sais pas quel endroit. Mais c’est le premier qui… Nous avons toujours des soldats qui n’ont jamais été revenus. Des gens comme moi qui n’ont pas de famille, ils sont au cimetière de Busan. Nous avons encore des soldats là-bas. Personne ne les a réclamés.
(I don’t know. It was held an honored going of a dozen French veterans. They went to Korea to spread his ashes. I don’t know where, but he’s the first one who underwent that kind of ceremony. In Korea, there remain a number of soldiers who were missing in action, so never returned to their homeland. Moreover, some people like me who have no family are buried in the cemetery in Busan. We still have soldiers there. No one pays a visit to them.)
Int.: 지난 해에 예를 들어서 전우 중에 한 분이 한국에 묻히고 싶다 그래 가지고 한 열 명 정도의 전우들이 이제 한국으로 떠난 일이 있었는데 그만큼 이제 한국을 사랑합니다.
(Last year, for example, one of his comrades wanted to be buried in Korea, and about a dozen comrades left for Korea. I love Korea that much.)
I: 장시간 아주 예쁜 집 집을 공개 하시고 인터뷰를 해 주셔서 너무 감사드리고요, 한국 사람들은 선생님이 와서 싸워주어서 다시 우리나라를 재건 할 수 있었던
그 한국전쟁을 잊지 않고 있습니다. 감사합니다.
(Thank you so much for welcoming us to your pretty house, and for holding an interview with us for a long time. The Korean people never forget the Korean War, and the veterans like you colonel who fought for us, by virtue of whom we were able to rebuild our country. Thank you.)
Int.: Vous avez parcitipé à cette longue interview. Il vous remercie. Le peuple coréen vous remercie. Votre sacrifice a permis de reconstruire le pays. On vous remercie sincèrement.
(Thank you for holding an interview with us for a long time. And also, on behalf of the Korean people, we thank you for your sacrifice that gave us a possibility to rebuild our country. We sincerely thank you for this.)
V: Je vous dirai aussi que c’était pas un merci, je suis très touché. Mais je souhaitais préférer finalement
aussi dure soit celle parce que ma vie était en danger m’a permis quand même de venir quelqu’un.
(Though I’m very touched, my last word is not one of thanks. I would ultimately prefer the danger and difficulty rather than the opposites because I was finally able to become someone else provided my life was in danger.)
Int.: 어린시절의 삶이 그만큼 또 힘들고 위험한 삶이었기 때문에 또 이런 성공한 삶을 살지 않았나 생각합니다.
(My last word is this. It’s because my life was difficult and dangerous that I was able to overcome it and finally to close it successfully like this.)
I: 감사합니다. Merci.
(Thank you. Merci.)
Int.: Merci beaucoup.
(Thank you very much.)
V: Je vous en prie. Avec plaisir.
(You’re welcome. With pleasure.)
[End of Recorded Material]