Jacques Grisolet served in the French infantry during the Korean War. When he was a child, the Germans occupied his hometown. This experience led him to fight for people suffering. He later served in the French infantry during the First and Second Indochina War and the Algerian War. Jacques Grisolet served two tours in Korea. He fought in major battles up and down the peninsula. Overall, Jacques Grisolet was extremely lucky as roughly eight percent of the French soldiers that served in Korea perished in combat. He is proud of his service and considers Korea like a friend.
00:00:00 [Beginning of Recorded Material]
Interviewer (hereafter ‘I’): 그러면 선생님 성함을 말씀해 주시고요, 그리고 스펠링을 말씀해주세요.
(Sir, may I ask your name and how to spell it?)
Interpreter (hereafter ‘Int.’): Vous pouvez épeler votre nom s’il vous plaît?
(Could you spell your name, please?)
Veteran (hereafter ‘V’): Grisolet. G R I S O L E T. Prénom Jacques. J A C Q U E S.
(Grisolet. G R I S O L E T. My first name is Jacques, and it is spelled J A C Q U E S.)
I: 그리고, 생년월일이 어떻게 되세요?
(What is your birthday?)
Int.: Quelle est votre date de naissance?
(What is your birthday?)
V: le 16 octobre
(I was born on October 16,)
- 28 October sixteen.
(1928. On the 16th of October.)
I: 그러면 올해 몇 살이세요? 지금 90세가 넘으신 거 같은데요.
(So, may I ask your age? You seem to be over ninety years of age now.)
Int.: Vous avez quel âge cette année?
(How old are you now?)
V: Ça me fera 91 ans.
(I’m ninety-one years old.)
I: 선생님, 정말 한 70세 밖에 안 보이세요.
(Sir, you look much younger than that. You look in your seventies.)
Int.: Vous avez l’air juste
(You look seventy years old.)
V: [LAUGHS] Merci. Moi, je sais non. Il y a des jours où je me sens très bien. Il y a des jours où je me sens fatigué. J’accuse, mais, mon âge quoi.
(Thank you, but I know I’m not. Sometimes I feel better and sometimes I feel tired. So I feel my age as it exactly is.)
Int.: 어떤 날은 에너지가 있으시고, 또 어떤 날은 그렇지 않으시다고요.
(Sometimes I feel better, sometimes I feel tired. So I feel my age as it exactly is.)
I: But, you look great.
(Anyway, you look great.)
Int.: De toute façon vous avez l’air très bien.
(Anyway, you look very good.)
V: Je ne cours plus comme à vingt ans.
(But I’m not able to run anymore as if I was twenty.)
Int.: 20살 때처럼 더 이상 뛰시지 못하신다고요.
(He isn’t able to run anymore as if he was twenty.)
(Where were you born?)
Int.: Où est-ce que vous êtes né?
(Where were you born?)
V: Je suis né à Guyancourt un village de la Haute-Marne.
(I was born in Guyancourt, a village in Haute-Marne department in France.)
Int.: Haute-Marne에 있는 조그만 도시에서 태어나셨다고요.
(He was born in a village in Haute-Marne department.)
V: C’est un village qui est voisin du village où était le président de la République, de Gaulle, Charles de Gaulle. Lui il était Colombey-les-Deux-Églises et moi un village à côté.
(My hometown is neighbored with a village where the ex-president Charles de Gaulle was born. The latter was born in a village called Colombey-les-Deux-Églises, and I was in Guyancourt, a village right next to it.)
Int.: 드골 대통령의
마을 바로 옆에 있었던 곳이라고 합니다. Haute-Marne, c’est loin d’ici ?
(It was right next to his hometown that the famous ex-president Charles de Gaulle was born. Is it far from Paris?)
V: C’est à 200 ou 250 km.
(It is 200 or 250 kilometers away from Paris.)
Int.: 여기 파리에서 250km 정도 되는 곳이라고요.
(It is about 250 kilometers away from Paris.)
I: 그리고 태어나셨을 때, 부모님, 아버지, 어머니하고 그 다음에 형제자매가 있었으면, 그 분들에 대해서 얘기를 간략하게 해주세요.
(Please let us know briefly about the family you grew up: your parents and siblings if any.)
Int.: Vous pouvez parler de vos parents, de vos frères et soeurs si vous en avez ?
(Could you talk about your parents, your brothers and sisters if any?)
V: Oui. Je suis né d’une famille nombreuse. Nous étions dix enfants, dix enfants.
(I grew up in a large family; we were a family of ten children.)
Int.: 대가족 출신이셨다고요. 자녀분이 열 분이셨답니다.
(He grew up in a large family of ten children.)
V: Deux garçons et huit filles.
(I have two brothers and eight sisters.)
Int.: 2남 8녀.
(He has two brothers and eight sisters.)
I: 그 중에서.
(Among them, you are?)
Int.: Alors vous étiez?
V: Le troisième.
(I’m the third.)
Int.: 세 번째였다고요.
(He’s the third.)
V: Le troisième.
V: Ma sœur aînée qui
(My eldest sister is)
a 94 ans.
(ninety-four years old now.)
Int.: 그래서 지금 누님은 94세시랍니다.
(His eldest sister is ninety-four years old now.)
V: J’ai mon frère qui a eu 92 ans, le 27 juillet et moi j’ai une sœur qui va faire ses 90 ans au mois de novembre.
(My eldest brother is just ninety-two years old on the 27th July. And my younger sister will be ninety on November this year.)
Int.: Tous en vie?
(They are all alive?)
Veteran’s Wife: Oui.
Int.: 첫 번째 분은 94세, 두 번째 누님은 92세 그리고 이제 그리졸레 씨고요. 다 장수하십니다.
(His elder sister is ninety-four years old now, and his elder brother is ninety-two. Mr Grisolet follows right next them. He comes of a long-lived family.)
V: Après j’ai une sœur qui est de son âge [POINTING HIS WIFE] ou il y en a d’autres. Il y en a deux qui sont décédés. J’en avais un qu’il était aux États-Unis en Californie qui est décédé à ses 50 ans. Et j’ai une autre sœur.
(Next to me, I have a younger sister who is the same age of my wife, and next to her the others follow. Two younger sisters have passed away; one of which had lived in California in the U.S. and passed way when she was fifty. And another sister…)
Int.: 10명 중에 두 분만 돌아가시고요. 돌아가신 분 중 한 분은 캘리포니아에서 사셨다고요.
(Only two sisters out of his ten siblings have passed away. One of them had lived in California.)
V: J’ai une autre soeur qui était sur Paris qui est décédée aussi.
(Another sister was deceased in Paris.)
I: 아버님이 부자셨나요? 이렇게 10명의 자녀를 두실려면, 너무
(Was your father so much rich as he ran a large family like yours?)
Int.: Est-ce que vos parents étaient riches pour avoir autant d’enfants?
(Was your father rich to the extent that he ran such a large family?)
V: Non c’était des gens simples. Mon père était dans les travaux publics et ma mère était mère au foyer. Du fait, avec les enfants il y avait suffisamment de travail.
(No, no particularily. They were ordinary men. My father was a worker in a public facility, and my mother was a housewife. They beared in fact the heavy burden of bring up their ten children.)
Int.: 그렇게 부유한 집안이 아니라고요. (아버님이) 공공건설 분야에서 일하셨고요,
(They were not rich. His father worked in a public facility,)
어머님은 그냥 가정주부셨구요.
(and his mother was a housewife.)
I: 1929년에 세계 대공황이 일어났는데 여기에도 영향을 미쳤나요?
(In 1929, there was the Great Depressio. Did it have any effect on your family?)
Int.: En 1929, c’est mondialement connu, c’était vraiment la dépression mondiale. Est-ce que la France a été affectée par ça ? Non?
(In 1929, there was a global economic depression. Did this crisis have any effect on your family?)
V: Alors… [RIRE] Ben. Je sais qu’enfin, on a parlé longtemps de la… comment s’appelle…
(Well, I heard for a long time of that hardship, the so-called)
de la crise de 1929. Mais je n’ai pas de souvenir. (the crisis of 1929. But personally I have nothing specific to recall.)
Int.: 그 사실에 대해서는 알고 계시지만 특별한 기억은 없으시다고요.
(He knows the event itself, but has no personal memory assosicated with it.)
I: 그래서 학교를 어디 어디를 다니셨나요? 어느 고등학교를 졸업하시고, 초등학교부터 기억 나시는대로 학교 다니신 것을 좀 (말씀해주세요.)
(Could you explain how held you your education? Please tell us the schools you went through starting from the primary one.)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez pu faire des études? (Have you been able to study in regular school education?)
V: Ben, comme c’était la période. Il y a eu la déclaration de la guerre en 1939. (Well, as you know, it was an exeptional period. There was a declaration of war in 1939.)
Euh donc nous étions quand même dans un village, euh, j’ai fait des études de primaire. J’ai fait jusqu’au certificat d’études, et c’est tout. J’ai obtenu mon certificat et après c’était l’occupation. Donc l’école était occupée, le maître était appelé donc, la guerre qu’il y avait… Et puis nous n’allions plus à l’école puisque les Allemands étaient déjà en place enfin en 40.
(Hm, we were living in a small village, so the regular school education had to be interruped together with the German occupation. I have no certificate farther than the primary school. Once I had finished the primary school, the occupation began: the schools were occupied, and the headmasters were called. It was wartime. We no longer went to school because the Germans were already in place in 1940.)
Après, non, non. On n’a pas fait d’études.
(No, no. We didn’t have any regular school education after that.)
Int.: 그래서, 그 시기가 39년에 프랑스에 전쟁이 시작이 됐잖아요. 그래서 당시 초등학교를 다니셨고, 그 다음에는 이제 독일 점령 시기였기 때문에 그 동네에서 그렇게 특별히 공부를 하실 수 있는 상황이 아니었답니다. 그래서 초등학교 졸업장 정도만 있으십니다.
(The German occupation of France dated from ’39 when he just finished the primary school. In such a small village as his, there was no opportunity for further studies. So, he only had the primary school certificate.)
I: 그러면 그때 한국에 오시기 전에
한국이 어디 있었는지, 한국의 역사나 이런 거에 대해서 아시는 게 조금이라도 있었나요?
(So, before you came to Korea for the first time, did you know anything about Korea however little it may be, for example, where it is located, how its history was?)
Int.: Avant d’aller en Corée, avant de se rendre en Corée en tant que soldat, est-ce que vous connaissiez déjà la Corée ? Vous avez déjà entendu parler de la Corée?
(Before you came to Korea for the war, did you already know about Korea? Have you ever heard of Korea?
V: Non. Non.
I: 아무것도 학교에서 배운 적이…
(Did you learn nothing about Korea in school?)
V: Non. Il a fallu qu’il y ait la… enfin la déclaration… qu’il y ait déjà chaud pour qu’on en parle. Autrement j’étais en Indochine déjà. J’ai fait un séjour en Indochine.
(No. There must have been a declaration of war, and people must have spoken about it. However, I was in Indochina at that time. I had to stay there for the Indochina War.)
En 1946, je me suis engagé dans l’armée, euh… j’ai fait le stage de parachutiste. Ensuite je suis passé en Algérie pour se préparer la guerre. Et je suis parti en Indochine en 1948-1949. Je suis rentré en début 50, euh… 1950 de février.
(I joined the army in 1946. In the same year I passed the special training for parachutist. And then, I went to Algeria to prepare for the Indochina War. I spent a couple of years, ’48-’49, in Indochina. I was back to France in the beginning of ’50. Um, it was on February 1950.)
Donc après les choses, je me disais bon j’avais déjà connu, j’avais été blessé, j’avais été cité donc je connaissais un petit peu la guerre d’Indochine. Euh, je me dis bon je vais rentrer dans la vie civile. J’avais 20 ans. On m’a dit « qu’est-ce que vous allez faire ? » « Qu’est-ce que je vais faire ? » Et puis il y avait la guerre de Corée. J’ai dit bon ben je sais, j’étais sergent dans l’armée française. J’ai dit bon bien écoute, je repique, puisqu’il y avait moi je m’étais battu contre les
(Came back to France, I said to myself, “I already experience the war in Indochin. I was injured there and decorated by that. So, that’s enough. I will give to my life the fresh start as civilian.” I was then 20 years old. People asked me such as, “What do you want to do?”, “What will you do?” And than the Korea War bursted out. And I said to myself again, “OK, I’m a sergeant in French army. I get in on the war once again as I’ve done. I have to fight against communists. There must not be any country invaded by communists.)
communistes tout ça. Je me dis il n’y a pas de raison il y a un pays qui est envahi par les communistes donc je suis reparti là-bas.
Int.: 46년도에 군을 입대를 하셨대요. 한국에 대해서는 전혀 전혀 모르고 계셨다고요. 그래서 이제 어떻게 군에, 군과의 인연을 말씀하시는데. 46년 입대하셔가지고 48년도 49년도에 인도차이나 전쟁에 참전하셨답니다. 근데 그때 부상도 당하셨고
(He didn’t know about Korea before he came to there. In the meantime, he has just spoken of the course of his joining the army. He joined the army in ’46. He went to the Indochina War in ’48-’49. He was injured there.)
그래서 그 인도차이나 전쟁 끝난 다음에 이제 들어오셔 가지고, 아 이제는 군을 떠나야 되겠다 이런 생각을 하고 계셨던 차에, 한국전이 발발했다는 소식이 들렸고, 아 그러면은 이제 공산당, 코뮤니스트들을 대항해서 싸워야 되겠다는 생각을 하셔서, 다시 이제 참전하시게 되셨다고요.
(Returned from the Indochina War, he had had half a mind to leave the army. Around that time, he had news the Korean War bursted out and made up his mind to go once again to fight against communists. So, he came to engage.)
I: 그러면, 자원입대 하셨나요? 아니면 draft 나라에서 징발을 했나요?
(Did you join the army or were you drafted?)
Int.: Vous avez été volontaire?
(You were volunteer?)
V: Un volontaire. Oui.
(Yes, I was volunteer.)
I: 자원병. 그런데 부상을 당했는데도,
그러고 몸이 안좋으셨을텐데, 그렇게 자원을 하게 된 특별한 이유가 또 있나요?
(Uh, he was a volunteer. However, was there any special reason for deciding to volunteer although you were once injured from that?)
c.: Vous avez été blessé avant, vous dit…
(You said that you were injured,)
V: J’étais blessé euh… le 25 décembre 19… 1948 en Indochine.
(I was injured in Indochina on 25 December 1948.)
Int.: Mais pourquoi vous avez encore, vous êtiez encore engagé dans une autre guerre ? Parce que vous en aviez pas…
(O.K. But for what reason did you decide once again to engage?)
V: J’ai fait la guerre d’Indochine, et j’ai fait la guerre de Corée. Je suis allé deux fois.
(I toke part in the Indochina War as well as the Korean War.)
Int : Mais pourquoi?
(But, why again?)
V : Ensuite l’Indochine jusqu’à la fin, et après l’Algérie j’ai fait 6 ans d’Algérie à la continuité tout ça, on continue.
(After the Korean War, I participated also in the Second Indochina War till the end, and even after that I continued my career in the Algerian War for six years. It was gone on.)
Int.: 48년에 부상을 당하셨는데, 근데 한국 전에도 참전하셔야 되겠다는 생각을 하셨다고요. 그 다음에 이제 알제리 전에도
(He was injured in ’48. In spite of that, he felt obliged to participate in the war against communists. So, he participated in the Algerian War as well.)
I: 프랑스에서 그때 당시에도 공산주의가 강했나요? 사회주의, 공산주의.
(Was the communisme influential in France at that time?)
Int.: Vous connaissiez déjà les communistes enfin le communisme?
(Did you know communists or communism at that time?)
V: Mais bah oui oui en Indochine.
(Yes, I knew it in Indochina.)
Int.: 인도차이나에서 알고 계셨고요. En France aussi?
(He knew it in Indochina. In France as well?)
V: En France, ben on savait qu’il y avait déjà des communistes aussi.
(In France, everyone knew that there were communists among us.)
Int.: 프랑스에서도 공산주의자들이 있었는데, 인도차이나에서 많이 공산당과 대항해서 싸우셨다고요.
(There were of course the communists in France, but it was Indochina that he fought most against.)
I: 그래서, 선생님이
갖고 있는 공산주의에 대한 생각, 의견은 뭡니까?
(So, what is your conception of the communism?)
Int.: Quelle est votre idée sur les communistes ?
(So, what is your conception of the communism?)
V: Les communistes… enfin, moi, tant qu’on est enfant on dit qu’ils sont communistes et tout ça. Mais j’ai commencé à savoir en Indochine puisqu’il y avait des ouvriers qui travaillaient dans des usines qui envoyaient du matériel qui était déjà trafiqué. Ils envoyaient, soit des mortiers ou… des fusils euh…
(When I was a kid, I saw people calling a certain person communist, and that’s all I knew about it at that time. In Indochina, I started to realise what it really was like. I saw those who worked in a weapon factory forwarding a manipulated weapon. Weapon they made such as rifles, machine guns, and canons didn’t work)
avec les cartouches qui ne correspondaient pas, il y avait des armes, des canons, si vous voulez. Ils trafiquaient, euh… ils falsifiaient un petit peu tout ça, déjà lorsque nous étions en Indochine. Ensuite, bien, moi je dis en Corée, puisqu’il y avait des communistes donc je n’aimais pas les communistes, je ne les aime toujours pas. Je n’ai pas changé de ce côté-là. (because they assemblied into a waspon with a magazine which wasn’t corresponding to the weapon itself. For me, communists were such a type who falsifies the weapon. That’s what I hold about the communist, and it was the same for communists in Korea. I always disliked them. I never have changed that opinion.)
Donc je me suis dit puisqu’il y a un peuple qui est opprimé, il faut l’aider, se battre contre les communistes.
(Therefore, I said to myself that people are being oppressed by such communists, and I have to help them.)
Int.: 코뮤니스트들에 대해서 굉장히 안 좋은 생각을 가지고 계셨다고요. 한가지 사례로 인도차이나 전에서 그때, 그 현지공장에서 코뮤니스트들이 뭐 이렇게 무기들을 만들고, 도구들을 사용해서 무기들을 만들고 하는. 어쨌든 굉장히 코뮤니스트들에 대해서 안 좋은 생각 갖고 있었기 때문에 한국이 코뮤니스트들에 의해 전쟁을 받았다라는 생각에
(He had such a bad opinion about the communist. That’s because of what he saw in Indochina. He saw there a number of communists spoiling the weapon. Because he dislikes the communist, when he heard that South Korea was invaded by the communist,)
거기서 싸워야 되겠다라는 생각이 드셨다고요.
(he felt moved to go fight against them.)
I: 그때 당시에는 한국이 어디에 있었는지는 아셨나요? 지도상으로?
(Did you know at that time where Korea is located in the map?)
Int.: Alors, quand, vous avez décidé d’aller en Corée et vous saviez quand même où se trouvait la Corée ? Avant d’aller, juste avant d’aller en Corée, vous saviez où se trouvait la Corée?
(Before you got there, did you have the least knowledge as to where Korea is located in the map?)
V: Ben, comme j’étais allé en Indochine. Je savais que ça se trouvait dans le secteur, mais exactement où non. Je savais que c’était à proximité du Japon mais
(Well, I didn’t. Because I had been in Indochine, I’ve known already in which sector Korea is roughly located. But I didn’t know exactly where it is. I’ve known that it is near by Japan, but had no more idea.)
sans avoir une idée précise.
Int.: 인도차이나전에 참전하셨기 때문에 대충 어디라고는 알고 계셨고, 일본 옆이라고 생각은 하고 계셨지만 정확하게라고는 말씀 드릴 수 없습니다.
(Because he had been in Indochine for the war, he has known roughly in which sector Korea is located. But he didn’t know exactly where it is.)
I: 그러니까 그 외에는 한국에 대해서 전혀 아시는 게 없었죠? 그때 당시에도, 인도차이나에 가셨을 때도?
(Except that, you didn’t know anything about Korea even when you were in Indochina, right?)
Int.: Même quand vous étiez en Indochine, donc on n’aviez pas vraiment une connaissance sur la Corée?
(Even when you were in Indochina, you had no more knowledge about Korea than that, right?)
V: Ah non. Là, on était en Indochine, c’est tout.
(No, that was all.)
(No, that was all.)
인도차이나에 대해서만 집중하셨다고요.
(It was not Korea but Indochina that I concentrated on.)
I: 한국전쟁이 발발 했을 때 어디에 계셨습니까 정확하게?
(Where were you exactly when the Korea War bursted out?)
Int.: Donc, quand la Guerre de Corée a été déclarée, juste à ce moment-là, vous étiez où, vous étiez déjà en France?
(At the moment the Korean War bursted out, where were you? Were you in France?)
V: Oui oui oui. J’étais en France.
(Yes, yes, yes. I was in France.)
Int.: 그 때 당시에는 프랑스에 계셨다고 합니다.
(He was in France at that time.)
I: 어. 프랑스에.
(Uh, in France.)
I: 그래서, 언제 가서 무슨 훈련을 받고 한국을 가게 되는 과정까지를 좀 설명을 해 주세요.
(Could you explain your course of entry into the Korean War,)
프랑스에 계셨는데 그때 그리고 나서 언제 소집을 당해서, 자원을 해서, 어디서, 무슨 기본 군사훈련을 받고 언제 한국으로 어떻게 떠났는지. (such as when you volunteered, where you were trained, when and whence you were sent to Korea, and the like?)
Int.: Donc, lorsque vous avez décidé d’aller en Corée pour vous battre, vous pouvez nous expliquer un petit peu la procédure ? Où est-ce que vous avez été réunis, où est-ce que vous avez eu une formation militaire enfin tout ça?
(So, could you explain what really happened since you decided to go to Korea: where did you gather into, where did you undergo military trainings, and the like?)
V: Non. Non. Non. Je n’ai pas eu la formation militaire. Je savais d’après les journaux.
(No. No. No. I didn’t undergo any military training. I just became aware from the newspapers that the Korean War broke out. That was all.)
Moi, je ne voyais que les journaux. Je n’avais aucune idée politique rien du tout. Euh, comme j’avais, comme je vous ai dit, j’avais fait un séjour en Indochine, je suis rentré à 20 ans. Je me suis dit que j’avais une expérience déjà. Je pensais rentrer, réintégrer la vie civile et la vie civile où je me suis présenté, on m’a dit vous savez faire quoi ceci ou cela. Ah ! J’ai dit que j’ai déjà commandé,
j’ai eu à faire des gros. Et on aurait voulu m’embaucher comme un employé, puis me faire travailler comme un autre, j’ai dit non, c’est pas la peine. J’étais sergent, il y avait la Corée qui était là. J’ai dit je me rengage et je suis parti pour la Corée.
(One day, I saw the newspapers. I had then no political opinion. Um, as I told you, I had spent time in Indochina and returned when I was twenty. I told myself that I got enough experiences. So, I was thinking going back to civilian. People asked me whether I know how to do this or that. I said to myself, “I’m a sergeant who had given order in the battlefield. I deserve to do more important thing.” People wanted to hire me just as an ordinary employee, to make me work like anyone else. I said, “No, I don’t have to, I’m a sergeant.” Around that moment, I heard the Korean War bursted out. I decided to re-engage and left for Korea.)
Int.: 당시, 프랑스에서 한국전에 참전하시게 된 상황이, 신문을, 당시 인도차이나전에서 돌아오셔서 신문을 보셨답니다.
근데, 그때 아까 군을 떠나려고 하셨다고 말씀 드렸잖아요, 그래서, 뭐 일자리를 알아보시려고 그랬는데, 이미 군대에서는 부사관으로 지휘도 하시고 그러셨는데, 일자리를 제안하는게 굉장히 형편 없었나 봐요. 그런데 어느 날 신문을 읽었는데, 신문에서 이제 자원병을 모집한다는 소식을 들었다고 하십니다. 그런데, 군사교육 같은 것은 받지 않으셨다고요. 이미 인도차이나에서 그런 경험이 있으시기 때문에. (Returned from Indochina, he saw one day the newspapers. There he found the Korean War bursted out. As he told previouslty, he was thinking going back to civilian. But people proposed him a job which seemed to him of little worth. Because he felt proud that he was a sergeant who used to give order to the soldiers in the battlefield, he thought he deserves to do more important thing. Around that moment, he found the Korean War bursted out. By the way, he didn’t undergo any further military training than he already got since then.)
V: Non je ne suis pas parti le nez au vent,
comme j’avais déjà une expérience de la guerre militaire. Je savais ce que c’était. Je savais bien que j’allais pas arrivé là-bas comme les matons avec les petits pains, etc., je connaissais. Je me disais que ben bien j’irais aller pour rentrer dans une unité combattante. Alors qu’il y avait d’autres personnes qui étaient avec moi qui disaient que j’irais bien dans un bureau ou dans un machin etc., moi je savais que je partais, mais pour être dans une unité combattante.
(No, I didn’t run about in confusion like someone else since I had already had much the experiences of warfare. I knew what it would be like. I knew very well that we were not going to be a prison guard. I knew well what is waiting for us: it’s a combat unit. While there were some comerades who still naively said that it would be better to get a post of an office or something similar, I knew on the contrary that we would join the combat unit.)
Int.: 한국전에 간다고 했을 때, 물론 동료들 중에서 경험을 안 했던 사람들은 뭐, 행정병으로 일했으면 좋겠다 이렇게 이야기하는 친구들도 있었는데, 당신은 경험이 있으셨기 때문에, 전투원으로 참전한다는 것을 알고 계셨다고요.
(Among the volunteers for the Korean War, those who hadn’t experienced warfare before hoped for an easy post. However, as an experienced, he knew that he was joining a combat unit.)
I: 그래서, 그때 그러면은 프랑스에서 한국으로 간 첫 번째 파견에 포함 되셨나요?
(Did you belong to the very first French contingent?)
Int.: Vous faites partie des premiers?
(Did you belong to the first French contingent?)
V: Non. Je ne suis pas parti avec le bataillon qui est parti au mois d’octobre et qui est arrivé en novembre. Moi je suis donc, ils sont partis d’Auvours. Moi, je suis parti de Fréjus. Fréjus, parce qu’au fur à mesure qu’il y avait des blessés et il y avait des contingents qui se formaient. Et moi je suis resté quelques mois à Fréjus pour former justement des gens pour repartir pour compléter les pertes.
(No, I did not. I did not belong to the battalion which left France on October and arrived in Korea on November. While their staging camp was in Auvours, mine was in Fréjus. In accordance with the loss of the force, we organized in Fréjus a contingent to replace them. So, I stayed a few months in Fréjus until I got in on a new contignent to make up the losses.)
V: Et donc, nous sommes arrivés. Je suis reparti en Corée et on est arrivé au printemps.
(And finally, my turn came round, and I departed France for Korea and arrived in spring.)
Int.: 그래서 첫 번째 전투 병력에 포함되지는 않았고요.
(He didn’t belong to the very first French battalion.)
V: Printemps 51.
(In the spring of 1951.)
Int.: (첫번째 파견부대에 포함되지 않았습니다. 이들은 오부르에서 출발했는데) 그리졸레씨는 프레쥬스라는 곳에서 출발하셨습니다. 왜냐하면 이미 첫 번째 떠난 전투병력들 중에 이제 부상자들이 좀 많이 났었나 보죠. 그래서 부상자들을 보충하기 위한 부대들이 프레쥬스라는 곳에서 이렇게 전투병력들이 이렇게 좀
모여지는 상황에서, 그래서 이제 한국에는 51년 봄에 도착하셨다고 합니다.
(He wasn’t included in the very first French battalion. The first French battalion gathered and departed from Auvours, while his staging camp was in a town called Fréjus. The French army guessed that, among the first troops left from Auvours, we cannot help seeing the losses in due course of time. So, the camp Fréjus was reserved for a place to prepare the contingent to replace a certain number of injured. In his turn, he left there and arrived in Korea in the spring of ’51.)
I: 여기서 어디서 떠나서 어떻게 간 여정을 좀 자세하게 설명을 해달하고 그러세요. 일본에도 갔는지. 해서, 언제 어떤 식으로 떠나서, 한국에 언제 어디에 도착했는지.
(Please explain in detail the journey from Fance up to Korea: where you left and how you went. Did you go by Japan? When and how did you leave France, and when and where did you arrive in Korea?)
Int.: Donc, vous étiez à Fréjus. Vous pouvez me dire l’itinéraire après Fréjus jusqu’à, avant d’arriver en Corée ?
(So, you were in Fréjus first. Could you tell us about the journey, from Fréjus on, before getting in Korea?)
V: A Fréjus ben,
on a pris le bateau à Marseille, avec le contingent on est arrivé au Japon. Au Japon dans le camp de Drake à Tokyo. Et de Tokyo nous sommes partis, comme on était un petit détachement, donc partis par le train. On avait traversé pratiquement tout le Japon pour regagner Sasébo par le train. Tokyo-Sasébo par le train. Et de Sasébo on a pris
le bateau pour aller à Busan. Et de Busan, après ben… les moyens, c’était des camions surtout à l’époque pour regagner euh… nos positions de combat quoi.
(Well, from Fréjus, our contingent took boat to Marseille, and we arrived first in the camp Drake in Tokyo. Because we were a small detachment, we moved by train from Tokyo on. We had crossed by train practically all of Japan to get to Sasebo: from Tokyo to Sasebo by train. And from Sasebo we took ship to Busan. And in Busan, we got into the truck which carried us to the position where the French battalion was. At last, we were bestowed each combat position.)
Int.: 그래서 이제 프레쥬스라는 곳으로부터 프랑스 남단의 마르세이유 라는 곳에서 배를 타고 일본까지 가셨답니다. 일본까지 가셔서 도쿄에서 기차를 타시고 사세보를 가셔서, 사세보에서 배를 타고 부산으로.
(So, left the staging camp in Fréjus, his cointingent shipped from Marseille, a southern port city in French, to Japan. Arrived in Japan, they toke a train from Tokyo to Sasebo, and again toke a ship from Sasebo to Busan.)
I: 부산에 언제 도착하셨어요?
(When did you arrive in Busan?)
Int.: Donc, à Busan vous êtes arrivé au printemps, c’est ça en 51?
(You said that you arrived in Busan in spring. Was it ’51?)
V: C’était le printemps 51. C’était fin mars.
(It was in the spring of ’51. It was in late March.)
Int.: (51년) 3월 말이었답니다.
(It was in late March ’51.)
V: C’était fin mars. Nous sommes arrivés en début avril… enfin pour les autres bagarres qui ont eu lieu… Je vous montrerai, enfin les noms, maintenant j’ai oublié, mais je verrai là-dessous.
(We arrived in Busan in late March, and it was on early April we joined the battle whose name I forgot now. But don’t worry, I will show all of them soon.)
Int.: 그 전투이름은 지금 잊어버리셨는데, 자료는 조금 있다가 보여드린다고요. (통역 수정) 다양한 전투가 발생하기 전에
부산에 도착하였다고 합니다.
(He arrived in Korea before his battallion ran into the battle. He cannot enumerate now the name of the battles he underwent, but he will let us know them very shortly.)
I: 그게 51년 3월 말이죠. 그래서, 한국이 어디 있는지도 모르셨고, 한국의 역사도 전혀 모르셨는데, 그때 한국에 도착했을 때 그때 본 한국의 인상이 어땠는지 좀 솔직하게, 주저하지 마시고 솔직하게 한국에 대한 인상을 좀 말씀해 주세요.
(Finally, you arrived in Korea in late March ’51. You didn’t know the history of Korea at all. You didn’t even know where Korea is located. What impression did you get once you arrived in Korea? Please tell us your frank impression on a country totally unknown by you up to that time.)
Int.: Alors, quand vous êtes arrivé en Corée pour la première fois, au printemps 51,
vos premières impressions c’était quoi ? enfin franchement vous pouvez nous dire?
(So when you first arrived in Korea in the spring of ’51, what were your first impressions? Please tell us as frankly as possible you could.)
V: Moi, les premières impressions, c’est de voir, comme j’ai toujours dit, c’est de voir le peuple coréen qui redescendait, ben qui était chassé… donc, les personnes âgées parce qu’à l’époque c’était plus comme maintenant. On les voyait habillés dans les costumes d’époque. Les monsieurs avaient charges sur le dos. Euh… bien les enfants chargés… s’ils avaient
une vache, etc. Tout le monde partait et de garder le maximum de biens qu’ils avaient. Et les gens partaient, ils étaient réfugiés, ils savaient pas où allier ehn. Alors moi, comme j’avais vécu ça, étant enfant pendant la guerre de France, moi j’ai été réfugié aussi. Donc je me souvenais tout ce qu’ils ont pu endurer surtout quand on était famille nombreuse, j’avais connu. Donc moi c’est ça qui m’a… toujours marqué, et je le ressens toujours.
(I was very impressed by witnessing the Korean population being chased away, altogether going south. I saw the elderly dressed in a way of which I’ve seen nowhere before. They dressed in the traditional costume. Each of them was carring on the back a huge pack of the family’s belongings. Occasionally, they had to take care of kids and cattles. Everyone was leaving with his possessions as much as possible they could. They were refugees who didn’t know where to go. When I was a kid, I had the same experience of the French War. I was too a refugee. So I remembered how much they were in pain, especially when they were a big family. This scene of people seeking refuge impressed me deeply, and I still feel it.)
Int.: 그래서, 처음으로 보신게 이제, 그 한국 주민들이 노인이나 아이들이 그 어깨에다, 어쨌든 최대한 많은 그 물건들을 지고 떠나는 모습들이 본인이 어렸을 때도 이제 프랑스의 전쟁을 겪으면서 똑같이 경험한 그 감정이었기 때문에 그 순간이 지금도 잊혀지지가 않는다고요.
(So, the first impression he got was of the Korean people being on the road to seek refuge: the elderly and even children were bearing on their shoulders the loads as much as possible they could. That reminded him the same feeling he experienced in his childhood during the war in France. That scene left in his memory an image still unforgettable.)
I: 그리고, 프랑스가
독일에 의해서 점령당했듯이 한국도 일본한테 35년간 가장 혹독한 그런 식민통치를 지배를 받아서 그런 비슷한 감정이 있었을 거 같은데 어떻게 생각하세요? 알고 계셨나요?
(Just as France was occupied by Germany during WWII, Korea was under the Japanese colonial rule for thirty-five years. Did you know this fact?)
Int.: Je ne sais pas si vous connaissez l’histoire entre la Corée et le Japon. La Corée a été occupée par les Japonais pendant 35 ans. Donc, il y a peut-être une ressemblance entre vous et les Allemands, je sais pas, est-ce que…
(Do you know an historical fact that Korea has been occupied by Japan for thirty–five years in the early twentieth century? So, the relationship between Korea and Japen resembles to that between France and Germany.)
V: Peut-être, peut-être si. Moi, enfin lorsque je voyais ces gens qui partaient, je pensais moi je me dis on est militaire, nous, on a une arme pour se défendre et on a des rations. Mais eux, ils n’ont pas forcément à manger. Ils ont toute la peine. Ils partent, ils ne savent pas où, ils savent pas s’ils vont manger, les enfants s’il y aura du lait pour leur donner ou quelque chose. Moi ça me rappelait un petit peu la guerre que les Allemands avec nous.
(Maybe, yes. Watching those people in trouble, I thought that we are soldiers; we have a weapon to defend ourselves; we have rations, but, meanwhile, those people don’t have to eat; they all were in trouble; they seek refuge; they don’t know where to go; they don’t make sure if they will get some food to feed their children. Well, it certainly reminded me the war we underwent against Germany.)
Int.: 당연히 프랑스가 이제 독일 점령을 받았을 때와의 관계랑 연결시킬 수 있겠지만 어쨌든 본인은 군인으로서 그렇게 전투식량도 받고 있고 그런데, 그때 노인들, 아이들이 이렇게 줄줄이 이렇게 따라다니는 게 정말 그 먹을 것도 없는 그런 상황이 본인이 그렇게 피난을 가던 그 시절이랑 겹쳐지면서 좀 많이 안타까웠다고요.
(Of course, there might be a resemblance. Anyway, watching those people in trouble, he was sorry that while he was a soldier, had enough food, they, regardless sex and age, are altogether hungry, and didn’t know where to lay themselves down that night. It overlapped in him the days of evacuation during the war in France.)
I: 그 부산이나, 한국에서 본 도시들이
어느 정도로 파괴되었었나요? 그 때 도시들이 어떤 상태였나요?
(To what extent were the cities in Korea destroyed, Busan for example? In what state were the cities at that time?)
Int.: Les villes que vous avez traversées en Corée de Busan, est-ce que la ville était détruite ou bien c’était, c’était dans quel état elle était ?
(From Busan on, the cities you passed through in Korea, how much were they destroyed? In what state were they?)
V: Bah ! C’était tout de suite après l’hiver. L’hiver avait été très dur quand même. L’hiver de 50 et 51 a été très dur. Et après c’était les pluies.
(Well, it was just past winter. The winter was very hard anywhere. The winters of ’50 and ’51 were very severe. Furthermore, we have had rain either.)
Donc il y a eu des bombardements. Donc la forêt n’était plus ce qu’elle est maintenant. Et après, en final avec les bombardements et tout, on trouvait la montagne elle était comme ça quoi. Il y avait plus d’arbres, il n’y avait pas de routes, il y avait… enfin, tout était… c’était un peu, euh, pas désertique, mais ça n’avait rien à voir avec ce qu’on voit maintenant en Corée. Les habitations n’étaient plus ce qu’elles sont maintenant.
Lorsqu’on passait dans des… dans des villages c’était les petites maisons avec le chauffage, je sais pas si vous connaissez, hein, on mettait et qui chauffait toute la maison et et tout ça.
(There were among others the bombardments. The mountains and forests at that time were not like now. After the bombardment, we found the mountain totally destroyed. There were no trees, no roads. It was not a desert, but it didn’t bear the slightest resemblance with that we see now in Korea. The habitat wasn’t the same as today. When we went through villages, we saw little houses equipped with peculiar equipment in order to heat the floor. I don’t know if you know that; if we put into it firewoods, then it heated the whole house.)
Int.: 그러니까 이제 50년 51년 겨울이 굉장히 혹독했나 봅니다. 굉장히 혹독했고 그 다음에 이제 비가 굉장히 많이 내렸었던 걸로 기억이 나는데. 그때 모든 산들이 완전히 민둥산이었고, 당연히 이제 뭐 이렇게
제대로 서있는 그런 건물도 많이 없었고. 그리고 기억하시는 것은 이제 도시보다도 이렇게 그 조그만 마을 같은 곳에서 아궁이를 때는 그런 집들, 허물어져 가는 그런 집들, 그런 것들이 기억나신다고요.
(According to him, the winters of ’50 and ’51 were very severe, and it got worse because of the rain. At that time, the mountains around the area were completely destroyed by the bombardments. Of course, there were no buildings standing still like today. Let alone the cities, he found out within ruins the typically rural habitat equipped with a fireplace.)
V: Parce que, que ce soit Busan, que ce soit les autres villes ou Séoul, on ne reconnaît plus ce que l’on a connu à l’époque. Est-ce que maintenant… maintenant on voit des buildings.
Je vois sur le… sur le fleuve Han à Séoul il y avait vieux deux ponts. Maintenant il y en a, je ne sais combien. Et tout ce qui s’est construit les buildings, les routes, les autoroutes, etc., etc. Tout a changé. Moi je me souviens encore les premiers, les premières fois que je suis retourné en Corée, c’était… en 1990.
(Be it a big city like Busan and Seoul, or even a rural community, we no longer recognize the places by what we experienced at that time. For example, there were only two bridges across the Han River in Seoul at that time. Now, I don’t know how many there are. Everything has been built newly after then: buildings, roads, highways, etc. Everything changed. I still remember my first visite to Korea in 1990.)
Donc ma fille aînée qui était hôtesse à l’époque m’a permis de faire un voyage, de retourner à Séoul puisqu’il y avait… il y avait une… comment ça s’appelle… il y avait une invitation par les Coréens là-bas. Et moi je suis parti individuellement. Donc au lieu de se faire payer les uns et les autres donc moi j’ai dû me débrouiller, j’ai pratiquement gratuitement, j’avais un GP. Je suis parti 8 jours en avance,
(My eldest daughter, who was a stewardess at the time, managed in order for me to take a trip to Seoul. An official visite of a goupe of French verterans was scheduled answering to the invitation of the Korean government. I had belonged to that group either, but I left for Korea individually several days earlier than they.)
et je suis arrivé, je ne sais plus à quel hôtel. Je suis resté 8 jours, si vous voulez, seul à Séoul en faisant d’un hôtel à un autre, et à me promener. J’ai essayé de… repérer, mais… c’était pas facile. Alors je marchais. Il y avait des jeunes, des étudiants qui me disaient qu’il faut prendre le bus. Je dis comme c’était marqué en coréen, donc il était impossible de se retrouver,
(Thanks to the Korean government and my doughter, I was able to trip without paying any of what I should have had in other cases. It was almost free, and like a big gift given to me. I had arrived in Korea eight days in advance, and stayed at the hotels personally booked. Arrived alone in Seoul, moving from hotel to hotel, I walked around many places in Seoul. I tried to take a public transport, but it wasn’t easy.)
mais j’ai marché beaucoup. Et je suis rentré dans des… Dans les marchés tous ça comme ça où on était, personne s’en fout de moi, et donc ben… ils savaient par quelques insignes que j’étais ancien du bataillon de Corée, vétéran. Alors là tout de suite on avait l’accueil. Donc tout le monde était là pour nous, nous aider nous rendre service, pour nous dépanner
aussi bien pour nous guider la route tout.
(Therefore, I couldn’t help travelling on foot. Young students whom I met told me it’s better to take a bus. Bu it’s impossible because I wasn’t able to read the signals written in Korean. I walked a lot so. One day, I walked into a market place. At first, nobody cared about me, but, once one had discovered the badges haging on my chest which means that I’m one of the Korean War vetarans, they immediately welcomed me. Everyone who was there helped us: people served us well, and guided us well enough.)
Int.: 부산도 마찬가지고 서울도 마찬가지지만은 지금 볼 수 있는 그런 모습들과는 아주 정말 천차만별이었다고 그 당시는 당연히. 그래서 전쟁 후에 1990년에 처음으로, 따님이 스튜어디스인데, 그 방문을 이제 또 그렇게 도와주셔 가지고 90년에 처음으로 방문하셨는데, 그때 이제 8일 동안 서울을 이렇게 그때 옛날의 모습을 한번 되새겨 보시려고 이렇게,
(No matter where it may be, be it Busan or Seoul, Korea at that time was very different from the one we can see now. He had been to Korea again for the first time in 1990. His daughter was a stewardess at that time. She helped him with the visit. He travelled Seoul for eight days by recalling the old places in his memory. He tried to rediscover some, but couldn’t find anymore.)
찾으려고 노력하셨지만 그것은 헛된 노력이셨다고요. 그러면서 시장도 방문하시고, 그런데 길거리 지나다니시면서 보니까 이제 주민들이 학생들이 또 이렇게 훈장 같은 것도 달고 계시니까 알아보시고 너무너무 환대해 주셨다고 합니다.
(One day, while he walked around Seoul, he happened to step in a market place. Once a shopkeeper recognized the decoration on his chest which says that he is the Korean War veteran, they began to welcome him.)
I: 그래서, 90년도에 딸이 보내 주셔서 가셨는데 그 이후에 국가보훈처나 한국 정부에서 초청해서 다시 가보신 적이 있습니까? (In 1990, you have been to Korea by the help of your daughter. Have you ever been invited by the MPVA, the Korean Ministry of Patriots and Veterans Affairs?)
Int.: Après 90,
votre première visite en Corée, vous êtes retourné?
(Besides your first visit to Korea in 1990, have you been to Korea officiallyn again?)
V: Si. Si. Je me suis retourné plusieurs fois après.
(Yes. Yes. I have been to Korea several times afterwards.)
Int.: Combien de fois ?
(How many times?)
V: Peuh ! 5 ou 6 fois, je sais plus.
(Pooh! Maybe five or six times? I don’t know exactly.)
Int.: 한 다섯, 여섯 번.
(Maybe five or six times.)
V: Je suis retourné en 1995 avec Monsieur Pioué. Vous avez connu Monsieur Pioué ou non? De nom vous avez connu c’est tout. Qui était blessé à Jipyeoung-ri, euh… le 1er février 19…51.
(I visited Korea in 1995 with Mr Pioué, one of my camrades. Did you know Mr. Pioué? You might know his name only. He was injured during the Korean War at Jipyeoung-ri on February 1st, 1951.)
Et il a passé 52 ans, si vous voulez, dans les divers hôpitaux, aux Invalides et tout. Je l’ai suivi longtemps.
(He spent his rest fifty-two years of life in the various hospitals: Invalides and the like. I had seen him for a long time.)
Int.: 95년에, 피우웨 씨라는 분이 이제 지평리에서 부상을 당하셔서 그 이후로 계속 병원에서만 이제 생활하셨던 분인데, 그 분과 함께 95년에 한국을 다시 방문 하셨고, 5-6번 가신 것으로 기억하십니다.
(In 1995, he visited Korea with one of his war brothers called Pioué who was injured in Jipyeong-ri. He spent his rest fifty-two years of life in changing from hospital to hospital.)
I: 그래서, 선생님은 한국이 어디 있는지도 몰랐고, 한국에 관해서도 전혀 관심도 사실은 없었던 상황이었는데 이제는 한국전 참전 용사가 되셔가지고 한 7 번 정도를 한국을 가보셨어요. 그때 51년도 보신 한국과 지금 보고 계시는 한국에 대해서 전반적으로 어떤 생각 생각을 갖고 계시는지, 선생님의 생각을 듣고 싶습니다.
(So, you didn’t know where Korea is located. Nor were you interested in Korea at all. But now you are one of the Korean War veterans and have been to Korea about seven times. What do you think about Korea you saw in ’51, and about Korea you see now?)
어떻게 변했고, 그게 선생님에게는 무슨 의미인지.
(How has Korea changed and what’s its meaning to you?)
Int.: Vous connaissez pas du tout la Corée quand vous êtes allé en Corée pour la première fois…
(You didn’t know Korea at all when you went to Korea for the first time…)
V: Je connaissais rien ! du ! tout !
(I didn’t know anything at all!)
Int.: Maintenant ça a tellement changé comme vous dites. Alors la Corée des années 51 et la Corée d’aujourd’hui, quel est le changement ? quel est votre sentiment ?
(As you said, Korea has drastically changed since then. So, between Korea you saw in ’51 and Korea today, what’s the change? What’s its meaning to you?)
V: Ben quand je suis
arrivé, bon c’était tout d’abord, c’était un pays qui était en guerre. Hein ? Donc je suis arrivé moi après, après l’hiver, au printemps. Donc c’était plus le même climat, le soleil était quand même gelé. Donc puisque c’était la guerre de mouvement à l’époque et j’étais affecté ce qu’on appelait à la 2e compagnie qui était avec des Coréens, les soldats coréens. Et donc j’ai appris à vivre avec eux.
(Well, when I first arrived in Korea, it was a country in war. Huh? Even spring came, it was almost the same climate as before; it was still frozen. We had to undergo the movement warfare at the time, and I was assigned to the 2nd Company which got together the Korean soldiers. And I had to learn to live with them.
Enfin je me suis retrouvée peut-être là comme j’avais été en Indochine avec des soldats du pays, en fait, des autochtones… Donc j’ai été affectée moi à la 2e compagnie avec les soldats coréens. J’étais à la section d’accompagnement. Donc il y avait des mortiers, mitrailleuses et, comment s’appelle… euh canon sans recul. J’étais sergent à l’époque.
(Finally, as I used to be in Indochina, I became to be good at living with them, the native Korean soldiers. As I said, I was assigned to the 2ndCompany which comprised the Korean soldiers. I was in the accompaniment section. So there were mortars, machine guns, and recoilless cannon. I was a sergeant at the time.)
Et donc bien il a fallu d’abord… Je me suis très bien entendu au départ ça s’est très bien passé avec les Coréens si bien que j’étais admis, donc je ne parlais pas le coréen. Et donc on arrivait, et on n’a jamais eu des difficultés à se comprendre au point de vue de commandement. Donc tout, s’est toujours très très bien passé et j’ai gardé de très bons contacts avec eux. Puisque je retrouve de temps en temps
des Coréens qui étaient à la même compagnie et on se retrouve comme si on s’était jamais quitté. J’en connais un qui a mon âge, on s’est revu à la dernière fois quand je suis retourné en Corée. On se retrouve comme ça comme si on s’était quitté la veille.
(First of all, it was necessary to get along well with the Korean soldiers from the start. And it was so successful that I recognized from them although I didn’t speak Korean at all. In regard with commanding, we never had difficulty in understanding each other. Because I kept very good contact with them, everything has always gone well. Every time I meet again the Koreans veterans who were in the same company, we meet again as if we never have been apart. I know a Korean War brother of the same age whom I have seen while I visited Korea last time. As is usual, we met again as if we had taken leave the day before.)
Int.: 51년도의 경험을 말씀하시고 계십니다. 그래서 그리졸레씨는 2중대, 제 2중대
소속이셨는데, 그 제 2중대는 이제 한국 분도 같이 같이 계셨다고 합니다. 그래서 그 한국 분들과 아주, 인도차이나에서도 같이 이렇게 현지인들과 같이 전투를 했는데 같은 소속이 되어서, 한국분들과도 굉장히 좋은 관계를 유지하셨다고요. 그 이후에 이제 방문하셨을 때도 그때 당시 전우들을 만나시곤 하셨는데 아직까지도 좋은
그런 기억들을 가지고 계신다고요.
(He has just talked about his experience in ’51. He was a sergeant of the 2nd Company which comprised a number of native Korean soldiers. He got along well with the local soldiers as he had been in the Indochina War. As long as he belonged to the same group with the Koreans, he had to have a good relationship with them with respect to command. He still has such good memories at that time so that he still met his Korean comrades of the 2nd Company.)
I: 그러면은, 부산에서, 부산에서 어디로 가셨어요? 어디에서 근무를 하셨어요 주로?
(So, where did you go from Busan? Where did you stay mostly?)
Int.: Après Busan, où est-ce que vous êtes allé ?
(Where did you go from Busan?)
V: Alors les noms… peuh ! Pardon, donne-moi le livre. Je vais regarder et je vais vous dire où on était après. Je vais vous dire toutes ces batailles que j’ai faites.
(Well, of the names… pooh! Sorry, pass me the book. I’ll search and tell you where we were next. I will tell you all of the battles I have had.)
[VETERAN TURNS OVER THE LEAVES OF HIS MEMOIR.]
I: 그러면은, Heart-Break,
Heart-Break Ridge 라는 곳이 있거든요. 그 전투에 참여하셨나요? 그게 51년 가을에 일어난 전투거든요. 그때 그 프랑스가 Heart-Break Ridge에…
(Sir, there is a battle called Heart-Break Ridge. Did you participate in this battle? The battle took place in the fall of ’51. It is known that at that time the French army underwent the battle of Heart-Break Ridge.)
V: Voilà, moi, je suis arrivé ici, après c’est alors après ici. Je suis arrivé là la première bataille c’est au mois d’avril.
(Here, I arrived here. After then, I was there. I underwent the first battle in April.)
I: 그래서, 근데 원주는 1951년 1월인데, 선생님은 51년 3월에 도착하셨기 때문에 거기는 안 하셨을 거고, 그러면은 화천전투에 참여 하셨나요?
(The battle of Wonju took place in January 1951. Since you arrived in Korea in March of ’51, you weren’t there. Did you participate in the battle of Hwacheon though?)
V: Je n’ai pas fait Arrow-head. J’étais parti. Parce que Arrow-head c’était au mois de… la deuxième quinzaine de juillet
et moi je suis, j’ai quitté au mois de juillet 52. J’avais prolongé de 3 mois. Je suis parti au mois, mi-juillet 52 et il y a eu la bagarre Arrow-head. Et après je suis rentré en France et je suis revenu au mois de… janvier… Nous sommes repartis au mois de janvier donc je suis arrivé début 53 et après j’ai continué… février, février 53 et les autres.
(I didn’t undergo the battle of Arrow-head. I left beforehand. The battle of Arrow-head took place in the second half of July, and I left Korea in July ’52. Beforehand, I had extended my contract by three months till July. Finally I left Korea in mid-July ’52, and the battle of Arrow-head took place subsequently. Once I returned to France in ’52, I decided to leave again for Korea in next January. I arrived for the second time in Korea in early ’53 and continued to engage the other battles since February ’53)
Int.: 그래서 두 번 참전을 하셨다고 합니다. (51년 3월부터 3개월 연장해서 52년 7월 중순까지 참전한 후 프랑스로 귀국하시고 그 다음해 1월에 다시 떠났다고 하십니다). 그 다음에, Donc, 51 et puis après,
(So he said that he participated twice in the Korean War. The first contract was from March ’51 to mid-July ’52 with the three months extension. Once returned to France, he left for Korea again in January of the following year. What happened afterward? )
V: J’ai fait 51, et jusqu’en juillet 52.
(I engaged firstly from early ’51 to July ’52.)
Int.: 7월, 52년 7월 까지.
(He engaged for the first time from early ’51 to July ’52.)
V: Et après 1953.
(I engaged for the second time in ’53.)
I: 펀치볼, 펀치볼 전투에, 그래서, 어, 그러면은 3월이면은 코테, 코테
(Did you participate in the battle of Punch-Bowl? It is also known that in March there took place the battle of Cote, in that battle too..)
Int.: Enfin, c’est maqué COTE en fait
la bataille COTE. Vous avez participé COTE, c’est ça ?
(There is a battle called Cote, did you participate in that battle as well?)
V: Toutes les bagarres qu’il y a là depuis le mois de…
(I have been in all of the battles since the month of…)
I: 참전하신 전투가 뭔지 정확하게 알려달라고 그러세요. (Ask him to tell us exactly in which battles he engaged.)
V: A partir d’ici.
(From this on.)
Int.: Vous pouvez…
(Could you explain…)
V: Donc, j’ai fait, HwaChun, Putchaebul, Soyang Gang, Punch Bowl, Creve-Coeur, KumWha, Le Triangle de Fer, et T-bone.
(The battles I partipated are as follows: Hwa-Chun, Putchaebul, Soyang-Gang, Punch-Bowl, Creve-Coeur, Kum-Wha, Le Triangle de Fer, and T-bone.)
I: 거기에 다 참여하셨나요?
(Did you participate in all these battles?)
V: Après je suis rentré en France. Et il y en a les uns et les autres (que) j’ai pas fait. Et je suis, après j’ai refait 무정리, 청평.
(After that, I returned to France. So, there are a couple of battles in which I have not engaged. And, for my second time since ’53, I underwent a couple of more battles: the battle of Moujung-ri, and that of Chung-Pyung.)
Int.: Donc, vous avez participé jusqu’à T-Bone.
(So you participated up to T-Bone.)
Int.: Vous n’étiez pas çà.
V: Là, non. J’étais retourné en France.
(No, I wasn’t there anymore.)
Int.: 티-본까지, 화천전투부터 티-본 전투까지 다 참전하셨고,
(During his first period, he participated in the battles from Hwa-Chun to T-Bone.)
V: Celles-là, j’étias pas. J’ai fait tout ça jusque-là, celles-là j’étais pas.
[CIRCLING ON A PAGE]
(I had been from this to that. Aafterward, I wasn’t anymore.)
Int.: 그 다음에 이제 53년에
마지막 두 군데에 더 참전하셨습니다.
(And, for his second period, he participated in a couple of more battles.)
I: 아 그러면은 굉장히 많은 전투에 참전하셨는데 기억에 남는 그런 전투나 에피소드가 있나요?
(Oh, you have participated in so many battles. What is the battle or episode you remember most vividly?)
Int.: Vous avez participé à tellement de batailles, est-ce que vous vous souvenez d’une bataille particulière? Une histoire?
(You‘ve been in so many battles. Do you have any particular battle or story you remember most distinctively among the rest?)
V: Certaines, peut-être…Creve-cœur… c’était
(There are many. But Creve-cœur is the one.)
Int.: 단장의 능선 전투가, 단장의 능선 전투가 (가장)
V: Il y a eu aussi c’est… après Hwa-Chun. Et Putchaetul, c’était…
(Next to Creve-cœur, the battles of Hwa-Chun and Putchaetul were the fiercest.)
Int : Pourquoi le Creve-cœur a été… ? il vous reste…
(Why is Creve-cœur the most remarkable battle? It left you…)
V: Parce que c’était d’abord la montagne. Pour y accéder le terrain qui était difficile.
(It is so because the battles took place over the mountain. It was very difficult to access to the terrains.)
Int.: 산이었기 때문에 그거를 오르기가 굉장히 힘들었구요.
(It was difficult to access to the terrains because we were over the mountain.)
V: Comme il y avait eu beaucoup de tirs de canon, des obus, bombardements, donc tout était assez lent,
on pouvait pas se cacher plus ou moins derrière les arbres.
(Moreover, there were a lot of artillery fire, mortars, and bombardments. We were prevented to advance more quickly because we could hardly find a tree to hide behind.)
Int.: 상대방으로부터 어떤 포라든지, 여러 가지 공격이 있었기 때문에, 기관총이라든지 공격이 있었기 때문에 그리고 그런 공격을 받을 때 숨으실 장소가 없었답니다.
(They had to face with the enemy’s attack of every kind, for example, that of artillery fire, and machine guns. There was no place to hide behind when they were under such attacks.)
I: 그래서, 하고 또 다른 에피소드가 있으면 좀 말씀해주세요. 전투 했었던 경험 중에 지금도 생각이 나는 그런게 있으면.
(Do you have another episode you experienced during the battle?)
Int.: Parmi les batailles, enfin, dont vous vous souvenez encore jusqu’à présent, est-ce qu’il y a d’autres
épisodes, histoires qui vous restent dans votre mémoire ?
(With regard to the battles, are there any other episodes you still remember?)
V: La guerre, c’est toujours la guerre. C’est toujours difficile. Bon ben, certaines, lorsque vous avez la montagne… parce qu’il y avait beaucoup de montagnes en Corée comme vous savez. Donc il fallait monter avec les munitions, le ravitaillement, le matériel, c’était quand même assez difficile.
(War is always war. It is always difficult, especially when you are surrounded by mountains. There were a lot of mountains in Korea as you know. It was so difficult to climb up with ammunitions, supplies, and equipments.)
Mais à l’époque bon bien on n’avait plus là, on avait 20 ans ou 22 ans. Donc on marchait, et ça faisait plus facilement que maintenant. Autrement ben, la guerre c’est la guerre, c’est difficile c’est dur. Ce qui est dur quelquefois c’est le climat. Quand il pleuvait, c’était plus dur. Quand on montait, ça glisse, vous tombez. C’est plus difficile que lorsqu’il fait sec. Quand il fait sec, vous avez chaud… Elles sont toutes dures, toutes les batailles sont dures.
(Of course, insofar as we were twenty or twenty-two years old then, we were able to march over the mountain far easier than now. At all events, war is nothing but war; it’s always hard. Another element which makes the war still harder is the climate: When it rains, war became harder. When we go up, we have to fight also against the slippery roads. A march becomes far more difficult than when it’s dry. Even if when it’s dry, it may be hot. In the war there are all kinds of hardship. Therefore war is always hard.)
Int.: « La guerre est toujours la guerre » 하고 말씀을 하시는게, 전쟁은 항상 전쟁일 뿐이다. 항상 힘들고 항상 어렵다라는 말씀을 하십니다. 그래서 특별히 이제 한국에서는 날씨 때문에 많이 고생하셨다는 그런 말씀을 하십니다.
(He says, “La guerre est toujours la guerre” which is literally “War is always war”: war is always hard. According to him, for one reason or another, there are always the difficulties that make war harder. During the Korean War, he has especially suffered from the severe weather of Korea.)
I: 날씨가 왜? 무슨 날씨가…
(What’s the matter with the weather? What kind of troubles did the weather of Korea cause?)
Int.: 좀 전에, 방금 예를 들으신 거는. 이제 비가 올 때, 특히 비가 올 때 많이 항상 미끄러지고…
(A while ago, he gave some examples. Rain made them suffering from slipping.)
V: C’est dur, c’est dur. C’est lorsque pendant, mettons…
une avance que vous avez, un camarade qui est blessé ou qui est mort, il faut s’arranger pour le rapatrier ou le retirer… le retirer un petit peu…. de la guerre, pour le mettre un peu à l’abri. Et heu, ça vous fait mal au cœur. Si c’est, enfin c’est tous des amis, une fois qu’on est en section tous les gens c’est au même lotis quoi.
(There is another cause that makes the war much harder. During an advance, we should witness our comrades to fall out either by injury or death. You have to manage to save the dead body in order to send it back home, or to withdraw the injured from the battlefield to rescue him from the worse consequence. It hurts your heart because we are all friends. Once we’re in the same section, we stand or fall with each other. All differences give place to equality.)
On marche pareil, on mange pareil, on couche… on couche pareil. Donc tout le monde est au même niveau. Donc ça vous fait quelque chose de perdre un camarade quel qu’il soit.
(We walk equally, we eat equally, and we sleep equally. So everyone is on the same level, and this makes us feel so painful of losing our comrades.)
Int.: 또 한가지 어려웠던 점은 이제 전우들을 잃는 상황이 이제 발생했을 때, 잃거나 이렇게 부상당한 전우들이 옆에 있으면은 그들을 이제 전투 상황에서 벗어나게끔 해야 되는데, 그 중에서 이제 사망하는 친구들도 있었는데,
(Another difficulty arises when they had to witness the comrades falling out in the battlefield either by injury or by death. When the injured are next to them, he needs to get him out of the battle. Even worse is to see their comrades dying in front of him.
다 잘 알고 지내던 친구 들이니까, 그런 때가 항상 힘드셨다고요.
(They were all friends who knew each others, so such happenings were always paintul for them.)
I: 그때 같이 근무하는 미군들이 소속이 어땠고, 선생님의 소속은 정확하게 뭐였는지 다시 한번 말씀해 주십시오. 그때 같이 싸웠던 그 군대가 미군이었는지, 그렇다면 어느, 2사단으로 알고 있는데 그걸 좀 자세하게 설명을 해주십시오.
(Please let us know once again what unit were the U.S. soldiers, and what exactly was yours? As I know, it was the 2nd Division of the U.S. into which you were incorporated. Did you operate with them? Please explain it in detail.)
Int.: Vous pouvez nous rappeler la compagnie
en fait dont vous faites partie ?
(May I ask to which company you belonged?)
V: C’est la 2e compagnie.
(It was the 2nd company.)
Int.: Est-ce qu’il y a un lien avec les Américains ? Donc c’est la 2e compagnie vous faites partie ?
(What was the higher unit? Was it Americans? Under what unit did your 2nd company fall again?)
V: Non. Elle faisait partie de bataillon. Non. C’était une compagnie parmi les autres compagnies. Il y a première compagnie, deuxième compagnie, troisième compagnie, quatrième compagnie et commandement. Ça faisait partie du bataillon. On faisait partie, on était rattaché au 23e régiment
américain, au 23e, qui faisait partie de la 2e division.
(No, not directly. Our 2nd company was one part of the French battalion. It was one company among the others. There were the 1st company, 2ndcompany, 3rd company, 4th company, and finally the command company. All these companies belonged to the French battalion. And again, a certain number of battalions came under the 23rd American Regiment which again was affiliated to the 2nd Division of the U.S.)
Int.: 지금 2중대에 속하셨는데요. (1, 2, 3, 4중대와 지휘부대가 프랑스 연대를 구성하고요), 2중대는 23연대에 속했고, 23연대는 또 미 2사단 속했다고 말씀하십니다.
(He belonged to the 2nd company. The five companies, 1st to 4th company and the command company, constitute the French battalion, and the French battalion again belonged to the 23rd American Regiment, and the 23rd Regiment again came under the 2nd Division of the U.S.
I: 미군들과의 관계는 어땠습니까?
(How was the relationship with the U.S. military?)
Int.: Quel est votre rapport, quel était votre rapport avec les Américains ?
(How was your relationship with the Americans?)
V: C’était bien. On en avait du bon contact.
(It was good. We had good contact with them.)
Int.: 좋은 관계였다고요.
(It was good.)
I: 부상당하신 적은 없으신가요?
(Have you ever been injured?)
Int.: Vous avez déjà été blessé ? (Have you ever been injured?)
V: En Indochine oui. En Algérie, en Corée non. il y a des petits machins insignifiants, des petits éclats comme ça, mais il a pas fait.
(Yes, I was injured in Indochina. In the meantime, I was injured neither in Algeria nor in Korea. I got some slight wounds, but that wasn’t important.)
Int.: 인도차이나에서는 부상당하셨는데, 알제리전과 한국전에서는 조그만 뭐 그런 거 말고는
(He was injured in Indochina, but he was injured neither in Algeria nor in Korea except for some slight wounds.)
I: 와. 그러면 굉장히 운이 좋으시고, 신의 가호가 있었던 거 같은데. 총 3421 명에 프랑스 용사들이 참전을 하셨는데, 혹시 몇 명이 전사하고 몇 명이 다쳤는지 아시나요?
(Wow. Then you’re very lucky, or rather, you seems to be blessed by God. A total of 3 421 French individuals fought in the war. Do you know how many were killed and how many were injured?)
Int : On apprend qu’à peu près 3 421 militaires français qui ont participé à la guerre de Corée, et vous savez à peu près combien parmi eux, combien sont morts ?
(We count 3 421 French soldiers participated in the Korean War. Do you know how many were killed among them?)
[VETERAN BROUGHT AGAIN THE BOOK]
Int.: 이백-육십-팔 명이 전사를 했다고 합니다.
(Two hundred sixty-eight French soldiers died.)
I: 어. 굉장히 많이 돌아가신건데.
(Wow. Then, you made a lot of sacrifices.)
V: J’ai la liste. Je vais monter tout ça là-dessus.
(I have the entire list of each fallen. I will show it all.)
Int.: 여기 리스트가, 전사자들의 리스트가 있다고요. (He has the entire list of the fallen.)
V: Il y a tout là-dessus.
(You can see the entire name of the fallen.)
[VETERAN TURNS THE PAGES]
Montre, vous allez voir tout ce qu’il y a dessus. Ça c’est l’Indochine.
(Watch! You’ll see everything in this book. This concerns Indochina.)
Il peut en prendre les photos tout ça, c’est bien ! C’est pour prendre des photos peut-être ça. Hein?
(You can make a photographic record of all those pages. That would be good. It deserves to be recorded, doesn’t it?)
V: Il peut apprendre. C’est un aperçu historique.
(You can learn something from it. It’s like an historical overview.)
[VETERAN KEEPS UP TURNING THE PAGES]
Int.: 역사적인 현황에 대해서, 상황에 대해서 볼 수 있는 거구요.
(You can infer from this the historical situation at that time.)
V: Ensuite, toutes les batailles.
(Then, this is altogether about the battles.)
Int.: 그 다음, 전투. (Then, this is about the battles.)
V: Ensuite, c’est les citations. (Then, it’s about the medals I was awarded.)
Int.: 그 다음은 이제, 메달. (Then, this is about the medals.)
V: Citations coréennes individuelles. C’est les citations…
(These are the medals from the Korean government. Those medals are…)
Il y a des citations présidentielles, présidentielle américaine. Et ensuite, il y a présidentielle coréenne, de Seung Man LEE. Citation présidentielle américaine, et Seung Man LEE. Et la deuxième citation américaine présidentielle, eh, coréenne pardon.
(This one is the presidential medal, the presidential medal of the U.S. And then this is the presidential medal of Korea signed by the President Seung Man LEE. The presidential medal of the U.S., and that of Seung Man LEE. And this is the another presidential medal of the U…no, of Korea as well, sorry.)
Vous pouvez prendre les photos si vous voulez. Je prêterai. Ensuite après ça c’est… oui alors. Corps d’armée d’Indochine et je sais plus. Et les morts de Corée. C’est ça. Alors il y en a une, plusieurs pages.
(You can take a picture of all those if you want. I will lend it. After that, it’s about a general of Indochina. I don’t know his name. Here it is; the entire list of the fallen of the Korean War. It fills up several pages.)
[FLIPPING THE BOOK]
Il y a ça, il y a ça, il y a ça, il y a ça, il y a ça…
(This, this, this, this, and this…)
I: 그게 전사자의 명단인가보죠.
(Is that the list of the fallen?)
V: Il y a ça. Erh. Ça c’est les soldats coréens morts aux champs d’honneur aussi.
(This too. In addition, this is the list of the Korean soldiers who died in the fields of honor too.)
[PROPOSING TO TAKE PICTURE OF HIS MEMOIR]
V: Il faudra prendre toutes les photos.
(All those deserve to be recorded.)
I: 그러면, 총 참전하신 분 중에서 8프로가 전사를 하신 거 거든요. 그러면 굉장히 많은 분들께서 돌아가신 거거든요.
(Then, 8% among those who participated in the war were killed. That’s really a striking proportion.)
Int.: 이제 사진 찍으시라고 하십니다.
(He asks us to take a photograph.)
Int.: Donc, oui. En fait s’il y a 268 morts sur 3 421 c’est beaucoup, beaucoup sont morts… 8% à peu près.
(If there were 268 deaths out of 3 421, it is really a striking proportion. You had a lot of sacrifices around 8 %.)
V: Oui. Oui. Mais par rapport aux Américains, eux ils ont eu beaucoup.
(Yes. Yes. But compared to the Americans, we saw far less than them.)
Int.: 네. 미군들이 훨씬 더 많이 전사 했다고요.
(Yes it is. But the U.S. soldiers died incompatiblely more.)
V: C’est toujours trop bien sûr.
(Their sacrifices were superior by far and away.)
I: 그에 비해서, 중국군은 훨씬 더 많은 사람들이 죽었는데 그 전투에서. 예를 들면 지평리에서는 몇 천명이 죽었는데 그런 거에 대해서 어떻게 생각하세요?
(On the contrary, a large number of Chinese soldiers died in the battles we just mentioned. For example, thousands of Chinese soldiers died in Jipyeong-ri. What do you think about it?)
Int.: Par exemple, pendant la bataille Jipyeong-ri, vous avez entendu parler de Jipyeong-ri ?
(Have you heard about the battle of Jipyeong-ri?)
V: Ah ! Oui. Oui. Oui. Oui.
(Yes, of course)
Int.: Apparemment, il y a eu des milliers de morts surtout du côté des Chionis. Qu’est-ce que vous en pensez?
(Thousands of Chinese soldiers died there. What do you think about it?)
V: Ben on a eu l’occasion d’y revoir parce qu’il y a eu les Américains qui étaient montés très vite jusque, euh…
(Well, we seemed to have an opportunity to gain the war when the Americans had gone up very quickly)
jusque dans le nord de Corée pratiquement, jusque… ah làlàlà… pratiquement… jusqu’à Pyeongyang. Et puis, comme les routes n’avaient pas été, ça n’avait pas suivi, donc ils n’ont pas pu faire de manœuvres. Et donc il y avait les Nord-Coréens, ils ont poussé il y a eu beaucoup de matériels qui étaient détruits, qui étaient tombés dans les ravins, que soient des camions, des chars,
(all the way to North Korea, practically up to Pyeongyang. But after then, since the roads hadn’t existed at all, they couldn’t follow up well, so they couldn’t maneuver the mobile powers. Soon, the North Koreans pushed down, therefore, a lot of equipment, trucks and tanks, were either destroyed or thrown into a gutter.)
tout ça qui sont tombés. Et les Américains sont redescendu rapidement, pratiquement jusque presqu’à Busan. Et c’est seulement après qu’il y a eu la remontée. Mais à ce moment-là ils ont fait des routes qui étaient carrossables pour les chars pour les camions, etc. Et donc et puis on a eu les hélicoptères aussi qui ont aidé. Et après, on est remonté, mais sur lignes de front. Alors qu’avant c’était un petit peu comme ça. [A LITTLE CHAOTIC]
(So, the Americans came back down quickly, almost as far as Busan. And it was only after this sudden retreat that we arrived to strive for the ascent. This time, we made the roads passable for tanks, trucks, etc. And we also had the helicopters backup. We moved forward, and finally we saw there having been made the front lines. Previously it was a little bit chaotic.)
Et puis là, on est monté en prenant, en s’insérant sur des positions. Et au départ, quand c’était la guerre de position, quand on arrivait donc c’était avec la pioche de trou. On faisait des trous individuels pour se protéger de mine et de tout ça. Et après, une fois c’est la guerre… c’est au mois de… lorsqu’ils n’ont pas parlé de…
(Wherever we moved forward, we tried to hold the tactical positions priorly. Tactically speaking, since we’ve arrived, we underwent the positional warfare. So we always accompanied with the trenches. We made individual trenches to protect ourselves from mines and all other attacks. And once the war entered into such a phase,)
c’est au mois de juillet 19… [COUGH] au mois de juillet 1952 là où on parlait pour la paix. Mais ça continuait quand même, là c’était quand même une guerre, on s’installait sur des positions. Il y a des bunkeurs, il y a tout ça. On faisait des patrouilles, des embuscades. Et donc, c’était plus la guerre de mouvements.
(starting from the July [COUGH], the July of 1952, we started an argument around a peace treaty. But the battles went on everywhere. We were still on war: we kept ourselves settling on our positions. We made bunkers, and all the like. We still had patrols and ambushes. But it was no longer maneuver warfare.)
Int.: 이동 전쟁이라는 표현을 쓰시는데, 미군이 이제 평양까지 거의 평양까지 올라갔다가 다시 이제 또 부산까지 내려오는, 뭐 이런 굉장한 그런 이동의 연속이었는데 52년 7월 정도부터는
(According to him, it wasn’t no longer ‘maneuver warfare’. Previously, the U.S. military had gone up almost to Pyongyang, and then facing with the enemy’s attack they couldn’t help but retreat down to Busan.)
(It’s the positional warfare.)
Int.: 휴전 얘기도 나오는데, 어쨌든 그러면서도 전쟁은 계속되고 그 다음에 인제 벙커 속에서도 서로 이렇게 이제,
싸우고, 대규모 이제, 전쟁이, 싸움이 이렇게 이렇게 일어나지 않았다 이렇게 말씀을 하십니다.
(Even while the ceasefire was on the table since July 1952, the battles continued everywhere. But there was no longer large-scale maneuver warfare. Fight didn’t occur anymore in that fashion.)
I: 언제 한국을 떠나셨나요?
(When did you leave Korea?)
Int.: Quand est-ce que vous avez quitté la Corée?
(When did you leave Korea?)
V: La Corée, on l’a quittée au mois de… octobre de 53.
(It marks its end in October ’53.)
Int.: 53년 10월에 떠나셨답니다.
(He left Korea in October 53.)
V: Il me semble, enfin, de cet ordre-là. Il me semble 53 sur le général
- Et puis, on est arrivé en Indochine, puis après j’ai continué l’Indochine jusqu’à la fin, jusqu’en 1954.
(It seems to me to be in the right order. Afterward, we had to move to Indochina, and I continued the Indochina War til the end, until 1954.)
I: 몇 년도에?
Int.: 53년 10월. 네. 53년 10월(인 것으로 기억합니다). 그 다음에 이제 인도차이나로 돌아가서 1954년까지 전쟁 끝까지 참전하셨답니다.
(He remembers it was the October of 53. Afterward he went to Indochina and engaged til 1954, the end of the war.)
I: 보통 프랑스 군인들은 그때 당시에
얼마나 오랫동안 한국에서 전투를 하셨나요? 보통의 경우에?
(How long did the French soldiers stay in Korea in the usual case?)
Int.: En général, vos camarades et vous même, vous étiez en Corée pendant combien de mois ? combien d’années pendant la guerre ?
(In general how many months did the French soldiers stay in Korea? How long did a round of their engagement last?)
I: 그러니까, 다 똑같이 근무를 했나요? 그 기간에? (Did everyone have the same period of time of engagement?)
Int.: Est-ce qu’il y a des camarades, parmi vos camarades,
qui ont participé plus longuement à la guerre de Corée ? ou bien tout le monde était pareil ?
(Were there some comrades who stayed longer than others for their engagement in the Korean War? Or did everyone have the same length?)
V: Il y en a quelques-uns qui sont retournés une deuxième fois.
(Several comrades engaged twice.)
Int.: 일부는 2번 참전하기도 했습니다. En général, c’est combien de mois ?
(Several comrades engaged twice. How many months did one round last?)
V: On faisait un an comme les américains. (We did one year like the Americans.)
Int.: 미군처럼 1년이었다고 합니다. (Like the Americans, their period of service was a year.)
V: Au moment de mon séjour, j’avais prolongé de 3 mois. C’est pourquoi je suis reparti au mois de juillet et puis…
(For my first engagement, I had extended the contract by three months. That’s why I left Korea in July, three months later than I originally contracted.)
Int.: 첫 번째 참전하셨을 때는 당신께서 3개월을 더 연장하셔가지고
더 오래 계셨다고 해요.
(He voluntarily extended his first engagement by three months, so it had lasted for a year and three months.)
V: Et puis pour la deuxième fois, c’était jusqu’à la fin.
(For the second engagement, it lasted exactly for a year.)
I: 그 때 가족들한테 편지를 쓰실 수 있었나요?
(At that time, could you write a letter to your family?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez pu écrire des lettres à votre famille ?
(Have you been able to write letters to your family during the war?)
V: Non. Je n’écrivais pas.
(No. I couldn’t.)
Int.: 안 쓰셨다고요.
(No, he couldn’t.)
I: 그 때 여자친구가 있으셨나요?
(Did you have a girlfriend at that time?)
Int.: Pas de copine, petite amie ?
(Did you have a girlfriend before you left for Korea?)
V: Moi, j’étais en guerre. J’étais en section. Donc lorsque vous avez votre sac à dos
que vous avez couché par terre, il n’avait rien pour écrire. Comme il y a des gens, suivant leur position, suivant s’ils étaient au PC (poste de commandement) comme les gens qui étaient au PC de Monclar, c’était le bureau, vous pouvez recevoir le machin. Ils écrivaient, ils ont pris des photos. Moi, des photos. j’avais pas d’appareil photo. Non. Non.
(I was in the battleground. I was always in my section. In the backpack we laid on the ground, there were no writing materials. Some people, working in the office like the general Monclar’s command post, were able to receive something by mail. They wrote, and took pictures. But I had no writing materials, neither a camera. No, I wasn’t able to.)
Int.: 행정병들이나 사무실에서 근무하는 병사들은 편지를 쓸 수도 있었지만, 본인은 항상 이렇게 전투
뭐 그 현장에서 잠도 자고 그래야 되는 상황이라서 뭐 쓸 것도 없었고, 뭐 그랬다고 합니다. (사무실에서 근무하는 병사들은 사진도 찍었는데 저는 사진기가 없었습니다)
(The soldiers who work in the office used to write the letter, to take pictures. Differently to them, he always had to sleep at the battlefield and didn’t have anything to write. Nor had he a camera.)
I: 53년 10월에 떠나실 때, 한국이 오늘 날과 같이 이렇게 발전 할 거라고 한번 상상해 보신 적 있나요? 그때 떠나실 때 한국에 대한 생각이 어떠셨나요?
(When you left Korea in October ’53, have you ever imagined that Korea would be a developed country as is today? What did you think about Korea when you left then?)
Int.: Vous avez pu imaginer que la Corée, quand vous avez quitté la Corée, est-ce que vous avez imaginé
que la Corée deviendrait…
(When you left Korea, did you imagine that Korea will develop as is today?)
V: Ce qu’elle deviendrait?
(Like what Korea would become?)
Int.: Comme maintenant?
V: Euh ! Pas vraiment. Mais, je savais que le people coréen était un peu plus courageux. Il avait démontré qu’il avait du cran et voulait se remonter donc il voulait reprendre un petit peu ce qu’ils avaient perdu, et même s’améliorer. Quand ils s’en souvenaient déjà puisqu’ils avaient eu l’occupation du Japon, et ils avaient eu quand même pas mal de choses.
(Well, not really. But I knew the Korean people were courageous. They showed their want and hope for recovery. They really seemed to want to take back what they had once lost, or even to improve it. They had their own history without blemish, before they had been occupied by Japan.)
Vraiment il voulait se remonter. Et lorsqu’on va là-bas on sait. Et moi, je sais que j’ai ouvert des grands yeux. La première fois que j’y suis retourné, à la cadence avec laquelle tout le monde travaillait. Même ne serait-ce que pour gagner la boule de riz, tout le monde travailler. Moi je me souviens les… sur les pelouses quand on est arrivé, l’avion de l’aéroport pour aller sur Séoul on voyait sur la route les personnes qui coupent
l’herbe sur les côtés où le riz qui faisait sécher sur les routes, sur les bas-côtés. A tout ça, ça nous avait quand même un petit peu surpris. Et puis la façon lorsqu’il faisait… Et à force les années suivantes on retournait, on voyait qu’il y avait, au lieu de couper le riz comme ça, il le coupait avec des machines motorisées et il y avait des constructions un petit peu partout.
(They really wanted to recover. That’s what I have realized every time I visit there. When I revisited Korea for the first time, I was very surprised that everyone was working so hard. Even if it was only for raising rice, everyone was working so hard. Through a window of the airplane arriving to the Seoul airport, I saw the people harvesting on the field: they were cutting the grass and drying its sheaf on the verges of roads. I was surprised most of all that as time goes by the way of harvesting does evolve. Witnessing Korea regularly over the following years, I always noticed some advance in every lapses of time: instead of reaping the rice with sickles, after a while, they were cutting it with motorized machines. In each lapses of time, the whole country was under reconstruction.)
Il y a reboisé. Enfin à chaque fois que je suis retourné, j’étais surpris parce qu’il y avait quelque chose qui avait changé.
(Mountains had been also reforested. In a word, every time I went back to Korea I was surprised that there was always something changed.)
Int.: 처음에 한국을 떠나실 때는 오늘날처럼 될 거라고는 상상을 못하셨지만, 그렇지만 그래도 믿고 계셨던게 한민족이 굉장히 용기있는 민족이라고 그렇게 생각하셨답니다. 일본식민지도 겪었지만 항상 이렇게 도전하는 그런 모습들을
(Leaving Korea he couldn’t imagine that it would become like today. However, he knew that Korean are very courageous people.)
보인 민족이고, 용기 있다는 말씀을 굉장히 많이 하시는데요. 그리고 처음에 갔을 때, 한국 사람들이 뭐 조금만이라도 별거 아닌 거 같은데도 계속 모든 사람들이 일을 하고 있는 모습에 감동을 받았고. 예를 들어서 길거리에 벼를 말리고 뭐, 이런 것들. 여기서는 조금 놀랄 수도 있는 그런 일들도, 모든 사람들이 어쨌든 일을 하고, 그런데 처음에는 낫으로 벼를,
이렇게 수확하다가 나중에는 이제 경운기로 뭐 어떤 그런 것들을 보고, 가실 때마다 굉장히 이렇게 발전하는 모습에 항상 놀라셨다고요.
(Even though they have experienced Japanese colonialism, they have never stopped challenging. He was impressed that in Korea people work so hard no matter how small it may be, for instance, drying rice on the road or such like that. There were also the progresses. At first they harvested rice with a sickle, and later they did it with a cultivator. He is always amazed at how Korea was able to show the advance every time he has been to.)
V: J’ai eu l’occasion de reconnaître la Corée différemment parce que je suis allé avec le révérend Moon. Je ne sais pas vous avez connu, Moon.
(I had the opportunity to know Korea differently; I once answered to the invitation from Mr Moon. I do not know if you know Mr Moon.)
(Mr Moon Sun Myung.)
V: Je suis allé peut-être trois fois avec lui.
(I’ve been to Korea with him maybe three times.)
V: Donc j’ai visité la Corée différemment.
(So I could visit Korea from a different perspective.)
Int.: 문 목사와 3번 정도 방문하셨나 봐요. 그러면서 이제 한국의 또 새로운 모습을, 새로운 단면을 보실 수 있었다고요.
(He had visited Korea with Mr Moon three times. This channel has made him to find out new aspects or new sides of Korea.)
V: J’étais au symposium, je ne sais pas en quelle année. Il y avait peut-être tous les pays qui était. On était peut-être 50 milles je sais pas qui étaient ressemblés.
(In an occasion, I don’t remember exactly when, there was held a symposium, there gathered people from all over the world. The number of participants mounted up to fifty thousand. I don’t know exactly who they were.)
V: On était avec Moon. Il avait une grande, je me souviens, il avait une résidence qui était… enfin, tout était en or. C’était magnifique.
(We were with Mr Moon. I remember that he was owned a luxury residence in which everything was ornament with gold. It was magnificent.)
Int.: En Corée ?
(Was it in Korea?)
V: En Corée ! Oui.
(Yes, in Korea?)
Int.: 몇년도였는지 기억은 안 나시지만, 이 문목사와 함께 그때 전세계 5만명 정도가 모이는 집회가 있었나 보죠. 그때 굉장히 놀랐다고 합니다.
(Though he doesn’t remember what years it was, there was a rally presided by Mr Moon Sun Myung. The number of participants mounted up to fifty thousand. He said he was very surprised at that time.)
V: J’ai des photos, ma fois il faut les retrouver. C’était l’anniversaire de Madame Moon,
(I have pictures taken on the birthday of Mrs Moon,)
la femme du président. Et c’est moi qui arrive, j’allais remettre le cadeau.
(the president’s wife. On that day, it was me that came up to and gave the gift to her.)
Int.: 문목사 사모님의 생일, 뭐 그런 거였다고 하는데요.
(He has told a story about his presence to the birthday of Mr Moon’s wife.)
I: 지금, 한국이 경제가 전 세계에서 몇 위인지 아시고 계십니까 ?
(Do you know how high South Korea ranks in the world in the economic power now?)
Int.: Vous connaissez la Corée se trouve combien position en termes d’économie, la puissance économique dans le monde?
(Do you know how high South Korea ranks in the world in economic power?)
V: Je sais qu’il a un niveau assez élevé.
(I know she ranks pretty high.)
Elle est peut-être, elle est dans les dix premiers en tous les cas.
(She might be in the top ten anyway.)
Int.: 10위 안에 들지 않나…
(She might be in the top ten.)
I: 11대 경제대국이예요.
(Korea ranks 11th largest economy in the world.)
Int.: C’est onzième.
(Korea ranks the 11th.)
I: 그런데, 2030년에는 경제 제 7위, 대국이 될 거로 예상을 하고 있습니다.
(By the way, it is anticipated that in 2030 Korea could rank the 7th in the world in economic power.)
Int.: Mais on dit, on prévoit qu’en 2030 la Corée deviendra la 7e puissance mondiale.
(By the way, it is anticipated that in 2030 Korea could rank 7th in the world in economic power.)
V: Oui. Oui. Mais ce qu’il y a maintenant, je vois Séoul grandi grandi grandi grandi, euh… je sais pas, ils vont mettre plus de monde là. Parce que la dernière fois je suis allé, il faisait l’autoroute qui va de Séoul, qui va jusque jusqu’au Nord. Donc il y a un métro qui se construit aussi qui va jusqu’au haut. Or, comme je leur disais, vous êtes en train de faire l’autoroute pour
Kim machin en une heure de temps, il vient, il est à Séoul.
(Yes. Yes. I see Seoul is still widening and still more people want to dwell in the city. When I visited Seoul last time, we have been on the construction site of a highway from Seoul to all the way to the northern district. At that time the subway which tends toward the north was being built as well. I told to a person concerned that you were constructing the highway for Mr Kim in order for him to get to Seoul in an hour.)
Int.: 한국에 가셨을 때 그, 고속도로라든지 뭐 이렇게 지하철 같은 것이 이렇게 확장되는 그런 모습들을 굉장히 많이 보셨는데, 우스갯소리로 고속도로가 이렇게 평양까지 연결돼서, 김이 이렇게 내려올 수 있게 하는거 아니냐 이렇게 농담도 하셨다고요.
(When I went to Korea last time, I saw a lot of things in construction; new highways and subways were spreading from Seoul to the northern districts in Korea. I said for a joke to a person concerned that thanks to the highway connected to Pyongyang, Mr Kim could get to Seoul in an hour?)
I: Hahaha. 그, 2030년에는 프랑스보다 경제규모가 더 커질 수 있을 거 같은데,
(Ha-ha-ha. Well, in 2030, it could be that Korea outstrips France in its economic power.)
I: 그거 어떻게 생각하세요?
(What do you think about it?)
Int.: Ehr. Je vous disais qu’en 2030 la Corée
(In 2030, Korea)
I: 그거 믿을 수 있으세요?
(Do you think it’s possible?)
Int.: pourrait devenir la 7e puissance mondiale. Dans ce cas-là, elle devance la France. Vous pensez que ça sera possible?
(could become the 7th most powerful country in ecomonic power. In this case, it outstrips France. Do you think it’s possible?)
V: C’est possible. Oui. Oui. Oui. Oui.
(Yes. I think it’s possible. Yes. Yes. Yes.)
Int.: 가능하다고 생각합니다. (Yes, he thinks it’s possible.)
V: Tel que l’on voit la situation en France. J’aime pas.
(Provided we have the actual France under consideration. I worry over the actual situation in France.)
Int.: 프랑스의 상황을 봤을 때는, 충분히 가능한 얘기라고.
(He said that, in view of the actual situation in France, it’s possible.)
I: 어, 그러니까 그 선생님이 보셨던 50년대 한국이 프랑스보다도 더 큰 경제 대국이 될 수 있다는 사실이 역사적으로 중요한데도 불구하고, 한국 전쟁은 잊혀진 전쟁으로 알려져 있고, 제가 알기로는, 프랑스에서도 한국전쟁에 대한 것을 세계사 시간에 가르치고 있지 않고 있는데 어떻게 생각하세요?
(Despite its historical importance that Korea you found in the 1950’s to be in poverty became one of the biggest countries with regard to the economic size, and furthermore she could possibly be bigger than France in the near future, the Korean War is still known as a forgotten war. As far as I know, it isn’t exceptional in France. What do you think about the apathy? Why don’t we teach it in history class?)
Int.: Malgré justement cette importance,
enfin potentialité de la Corée qui a connu et qui a vécu la guerre de Corée, malgré ça, on parle peu de cette guerre de Corée. Même en France, on pense qu’on n’apprend pas aux jeunes
(Despite its historical importance that a remarkable potentiality was latent in Korea you experienced in the 50’s, we still have scruples about speaking of the Korean Way. In France as well, we don’t teach this war at the school.)
V: Non. Non.
Int.: cette guerre. Qu’est-ce que vous en pensez?
(What do you think about these scruples?)
V: C’est malheureux. Parce que on devrait avoir… le enfin, on a fait, nous, avec le bataillon et l’association, on est retourné, on a fait les chemins de…
(It is unfortunate. The veterans with their association trying to keep alive our past by holding an events such as paths of memory.)
de la mémoire. Mais on n’apprend pas aux jeunes, à nos jeunes enfants. Alors en Corée on apprend à tous les jeunes. Moi, je me souviens quand on allait là-bas dans les cimetières on les voit tous les jours, enfin tous les jours, peut-être pas tous les jours, mais ils vont nettoyer, fleurir les tombes, etc. Donc on amène cette jeunesse à savoir,
à leur faire toucher du doigt ce qu’a été leur pays à l’époque, et ce qu’il est devenu maintenant.
(But we don’t teach our younger generations at school. On the contrary, all younger people in Korea seem to be well taught. When we visited to the cemetery park in Korea, we saw that almost every day people came to clean and to flower the graves. We have to get our younger generations to know Korea, to make them realize what Korea was in the 50’s, and what it has become now.)
Int.: Tandis qu’en France…
(On the contrary, in France…)
V: France? Non!
(France? We do nothing.)
Int.: 프랑스에서는, 그 젊은이들에게, 청소년들한테 한국전에 대해서 전혀 가르치지 않는다고 생각합니다. 당신께서 한국에 가셨을 때는 그 한국 사람들, 그 청소년들이 또 뭐 국립묘지 같은 데서 이렇게 무덤을 청소한다던가 이렇게 그 전쟁, 과거의 전쟁에 대해서 이렇게 상기하게끔 하는 그런 교육들을 많이 시키는 것을
보셨는데, 프랑스에서는 전혀 그렇지 않아서 굉장히 불행한 현실이라고 그렇게 말씀하십니다.
(He thinks that in France people don’t make any effort to teach the younger generation about the Korean War. On the contrary, when he went to Korea, he saw that people elaborated to remind the younger generation of the War: he saw that youths were cleaning and flowering the graves in the national cemetery park. According to him it’s very unfortunate for France that its importance isn’t well realized among the people.)
I: 그런데 왜 안가르치는거지? 왜 안가르친다고 생각하세요?
(Why on earth don’t we teach it to the younger generation?)
I: 그게 중요한 것임에도 불구하고.
(Despite its importance.)
Int.: Pourquoi les Français apprennent pas cette guerre aux jeunes ? (Why doesn’t France teach their younger generation about this war?)
V: Vous avez des… toute l’éducation nationale, ces tous des socialistes, des socialo-communistes. Donc ils font tous, si vous voulez, lorsqu’en France on voulait réformer, on veut jamais…
(It’s because, in France, all policy makers in the national education are socialists or social-communists. They decide all things. Therefore, even when they came to reform some educational policy, they never wanted to amend as far as those parts of history of pro-communist.)
les… C’est tout pour les autres, mais jamais pour le bien-être. On casse tout, pour ne pas que ça aboutisse, etc., etc. Que ce soit en Corée, que ce soit en Indochine, il y a eu en Algérie, il y a eu les porteurs de valises, c’était tous les communistes qui étaient là et qui ont donné de l’argent au FLN (Front de Libération National) pour nous battre tout ça. Ils ont une mentalité, c’est affreux. Ces communistes, je ne sais pas moi. [WITH A GESTURE OF HANGING NECK]
(It was always deaclared for the sake of the others, but never for the sake of the well-being. We broke everything in order not to let someone else have it. Be it Korea, Indochina, or even Algeria, there always were a man of briefcase who was communist altogether. In Algeria, those who maneuvers gave money to the F.L.N. (National Liberation Front; the pre-war Algerian independent group) to fight against us. They have such a mentality; it’s awful. Of these communists, Jusus Christ, I shoundn’t even mention who they were.) [WITH A GESTURE OF HANGING NECK]
Int.: 프랑스 정부가, 사회-공산당으로, 이제 과거에 그렇게 됐기 때문에 이들이 전쟁에 대한 어떤 기억이, 어떤 추모하는 노력이 전혀 없다고 합니다.
(The French government still issues from the social-communist parties, and by that reason, they had no memory to remind. It is natural that they make no effort to friendly teach about the war their predecessors once violently opposed with.)
V: Regardez les gilets jaunes. Ils veulent… ils ne savent pas ce qu’ils veulent. Donc on leur donne quelque chose un peu, mais les gens voudraient tout avoir. Ils veulent pas travailler, mais ils veulent avoir beaucoup d’argent.
(Look at the yellow vests (Note: a radical social movement fueled mainly by the discontent with the distributive justice). They don’t know what they really want. If we give them something, then they want all. They don’t want to work, but they want a lot of money.)
C’est ça qui est malheureux en France, c’est ça. On éduque pas. Vous avez des enfants qui n’ont jamais vu leurs parents travailler, comment voulez-vous qu’ils aillent et qu’ils aient envie d’aller travailler ? Donc les gens vivent que des allocations, donc ce sont tous des assistés et comme tous ces gens que… que l’on accepte. Moi je suis pas que les gens soient bleu, qui soient noir, je m’en fiche
(That’s the unfortunate for France, that’s it. There are a lot of problems about the education: we don’t teach our children as it should. If you have children who have never seen their parents go to work, how do you expect them to want to go to work? Here in France too many people are permitted to live, without working, thanks to the social allowance. They are supported as much as all the immigrants we accepted. I don’t care those people are blue or black, only if they are altogether sincere.)
du moment que les gens sont droits. Les religions c’est pareil. Mais tous ces gens que l’on voit, on en voit dans notre coin, que des jeunes qui sont en panne, qui font de la drogue, qui vivent avec ça… C’est ça. Et tous les gens qu’on fait venir, qui s’en vont des pays, bon les pays où il y a la guerre, mais il y a des gens qui ne sont pas en guerre mais qui viennent quand même. Nous, on donne. Ils viennent. Ils savent qu’ils ont des allocations, ils sont prioritaires de ceci… ils sont pris.
(For the matter of religion, it’s the same. Far from it, all those people we can see in our corner are however, badly motivated, drug dependant youths who make a meager living relying on social aids. That’s the problem. The immigrants need help because they could help but leaving the countries thrown into confusion by the war. However, those people in the corner are not the refugees escaped from such a disturbance. We give them allowance groundlessly, therefore they are still coming. They know to be able to get allowance unconditionally, and to be given preference at this.)
Ils n’ont pas envie de travailler. Ils ont envie qu’on leur donne de l’argent. Ceux qui viennent et ils font des enfants. Ils ont des allocations, ils n’ont pas besoin d’aller travailler. Ils sont avec les allocations.
(They don’t want to work. They want to be given money. That’s why they have many children. In proportion to the number of children, they have much allowance. They don’t have to go to work. They believe in the social allowance.)
Int.: 프랑스 공교육 프로그램이 굉장히 문제가 많이 있다고 처음에 말씀하셨고요. 사회공산주의당들이 장악하면서 공교육 프로그램이 굉장히 그런 과거의 어떤 그런 기억들을 잊게 만드는 그런 계기가 되었고, 지금 현재 프랑스 사회에서는,
노란조끼 그것에, 데모에 대해서는 들어보셨는지 모르겠지만, 조금만 주면은 더 많은 것을 요구하는 어떤 사회적인 풍토, 그런 것이 지금 프랑스의 현실이라고 합니다. 그래서 많은 사람들이 뭐 지금 인종차별을 얘기하는 것은 아니지만, 뭐 까만 사람이든, 뭐 어떤 색깔 피부색을 가진 사람이든 열심히 일을 하면 되는데, 지금 많이 지금 프랑스에 들어오는 사람들이 단지 정부에서의 어떤 보조금만을 원한 채 그렇게 들어오기 때문에
그런 게 지금 프랑스의 현실이라고 합니다.
(According to him, more than anything else, the public education is the most problematic. As the social communist party took over, the public education was compeled to forget the most of the past no matter how important it may be. He has no racial prejudice; personal sincerity is the only criterion when he judges a person. However, there are so many people who come into France in order to live on thanks to the social allowance only without doing anyting. France systemically permits them to live that way.)
I: 그래서… (So,)
V: Regardez en Corée, lorsqu’il y a un enfant dans une famille. Donc il arrive à l’âge scolaire, les parents se mettent à… si vous voulez, à nu pratiquement pour que leur enfant ait une éducation. Et donc ils empruntent, etc., et après une fois qu’il a son éducation, il vole de ses propres ailes. Mais les gens le poussent,
l’aident pour qu’il ait ça. En France vous ne voyez pas ça.
(Compare Korea. If a child in a family gets to the school age, then his parents will make a desperate effort to give him a better education. Sometimes they borrow money for that. After he passes through his education, he finally stands on his own feet. But people still push him, help him to have a good opportunity. In France you couldn’t see such like this.)
Int.: 한국 같은 경우는 아이가 태어나면은 그 아이가 좋은 교육을 받을 수 있도록, 돈을 빌려서라도 좋은 교육을 받을 수 있도록 교육에 굉장한 중요성을 두는데, 프랑스 같은 경우는 그렇지 않다고 합니다. (In the case of Korea, when a child is born, the greatest importance is placed on his education, so that the child can receive a good education even by the borrowed money. But in France nothing is like that.)
I: 그래서, 저희 재단이 이렇게 학습자료를 이, 이 인터뷰를 이용해서 학습자료를 만들어 가지고, 선생님들한테 주어서 선생님들이 계속 한국 전쟁에 대해서 가르치게 하는
작업을 저희가 하고 있는데, 프랑스에서도 그게 가능할까요? 우리 선생님들하고 같이 이런 책을 만들어 내고 싶은데 어떻게 생각하십니까?
(So, our foundation will elaborate on producing the teaching materials about the Korean War on the basis of your interview. We will furnish those materials to history teachers so that they can utilize them to teach in class about the Korean War more rightly. Is such a kind of undertaking possible in France? I want to make a similar book with French teachers. What do you think?)
Int.: Sa fondation, écrit, produit ce genre de livre pour que les professeurs en histoire travaillent avec leurs enfants, leurs étudiants sur la guerre, sur l’histoire en fait. Donc il souhaite que
en France aussi les professeurs en histoire travaillent avec des élèves sur ce genre de sujet, vous pensez que ça marcherait ?
(His foundation will make a book about the Korean War for a history teacher to enable him to teach their students on the Korean War more satisfactorily. Moreover, he wants to cooperate with a number of history teachers in France for a French verson of such a teaching material. Do you think that would work?)
V: Ben bien, parce que la France a une histoire. Une histoire, ça ne commence pas à partir de là. Ça commence depuis… la nuit des temps. Lorsque les socialistes sont arrivés au pouvoir, on dit déjà l’histoire. On a commencé à partir de là, l’Algérie. (Well, France has his history which doesn’t start from that time. It started from the dawn of history. When the socialists came to power, people discussed much about the history. They said we did start from there, from Algeria.)
Tout le reste ils ont mis de côté. Ils ont dit c’est l’Algérie, l’Algérie. On apprend aux enfants, aux élèves l’histoire de l’Algérie. La France n’a pas existé, rien n’existait avant. Vous dites les anciens comb…, puf ! La plupart des gens, ils disent ça « il y a eu la guerre de Corée ? ». Ils ne savent pas. Parce que on leur a jamais éduqué. Je me souviens, on était en Indochine, on nous a traités l’assassin, etc. Lorsque les gens rentraient, les morts ou les blessés arrivaient à Marseille
par bateau les cercueils, il y avait des communistes qui crachaient dessus toutes les choses.
(They put aside everything else. They said in the beginning it was Algeria, Algeria. We teach children the history of Algeria. People behaved as if France had not existed before, as if nothing had existed before then. If you could have asked them of the Korean War veteran, they would have responded, “Pooh!” Most people would have said, “Was there the Korean War?” They don’t know it because we never educated them of it. I remember that when we engaged in the Indochina War, we were considered as a murderer something. When we returned to France, to the port of Marseille, with the wounds and the coffins of deads, the communists spat on all the things.)
Int.: 프랑스의 참전용사들에 대한 생각이 어떠냐면은, 특히 사회당이 집권하면서, 그 알제리 전까지는 기억을 하지만 그 이전에 있었던 전쟁 같은 거에 대해서는 전혀 완전히 이제 말살정책을 폈다는 식으로 말씀하십니다. 특히 이제 인도차이나 전에서 이제 귀국할 때, 부상자도 있고
그랬을 때, 공산당, 코뮤니스트들이 이제 막 침도 뱉고 부상자들한테 그런 경우가 있으시다고 참전용사들에 대한 예유가 전혀 없는 그런 나라라고 하십니다.
(He has just talked about what the average French people thought of the veterans. Especially once the socialist party came to power, they had a policy of keeping silence about the wars that preceded the independence of Algeria. The French people compelled to forget everything before the Algerian War. When the Korean War veterans returned to France with the injured and the deads, the communists dared to spit on all of them.)
I: 그러면은 펜션이나, 이런 연금도 없나요? 참전용사로써, 한국전 참전용사로써 국가에서 지급하는 연금이나 보상 같은 거는 있습니까?
(As the veteran of the Korean War, do you have any pension you benefit from? Is there any pension or compensation paid by the government under the title of the Korean War veteran?)
Int.: Vous n’avez pas de pension en tant que vétéran de la guerre de Corée, vous ne recevez rien ?
(Don’t you benefit from the pension as the title of the Korean War veteran? Isn’t there any compensation for your participation to this war?)
(No, there isn’t.)
No. No. No. (No. No. No.)
V: J’ai juste une petite pension parce que j’ai été blessé. C’est tout.
(I benefit from a pension because I was injured. That’s all.)
Int.: 조금 연금이 있으시지만, 그것은 이제 부상을 당하셨기 때문에.
(He benefits from a pension, but it is in return for his injury during the war, and nothing more.)
Int.: Pas en Corée. C’est Indochine ?
(It’s not for the Korean War. Isn’t it for the Indochina War?)
V: En Indochine, en Algérie j’ai été blessé.
(I was injured in the Indochina War and in the Algeria Was as well.)
Int.: 인도차이나와 알제리에서 조금 부상을 당하셨기 때문에 조금의 연금이 있지만.
(Because he was injured in Indochina and Algeria, he benefits small injury pension.)
V: Autrement j’ai une pension militaire puisque j’ai fait, euh… enfin, les guerres, j’ai fait tout ça. C’est une retraite militaire que j’ai.
(Otherwise I have a military pension since I did wars, since I did all that I explained. It’s a military retreat pension.)
Int.: 물론 이제,
군인 경력을 가지고 계시기 때문에 군인 연금은 있으시지만.
(Of course, as a title of career soldier, he has a military retreat pension.)
I: 한국, 내년이 한국전쟁 발발 70주년인데, 우리 한국 국민들에게 선생님께서 특별히 전하고 싶은 그런 메시지가 있습니까? 참전용사로써, 프랑스의.
(Next year is the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War. As one of the French veterans, do you have any message to leave for the Korean people?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous auriez un message à transmettre au peuple coréen
à l’occasion de 70e anniversaire de déclenchement de la guerre de Corée ? Est-ce que vous auriez un message à transmettre au peuple coréen
à l’occasion de 70e anniversaire de déclenchement de la guerre de Corée ?
(Do you have any message to leave for the Korean people who will greet next year the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War? Do you have any message to leave for the Korean people?)
V: Moi, je leur dis qu’ils continuent comme ils feraient sur leur lancée. Et à chaque fois que l’on va là-bas, on est émerveillé de savoir, de voir euh les progrès qu’ils le font, que ce soit sur tous les niveaux. Hein ? Vous voyez les… D’abord au point de vue de tenue, moi, je vois lorsqu’on va là-bas, les enfants de l’école ils sortent tous
en tenue impeccable, alors qu’en France ils sont.. .comme ça. Moi, j’ai eu l’occasion de visiter euh… SAMSUNG, l’usine de SAMSUNG où ils font tout. J’étais avec Monsieur Pioué à l’époque. On a visité. Donc on nous a montré tout ce qu’ils font. Et à côté de l’usine, il y avait une habitation où il formait les jeunes qui allaient devenir des ingénieurs ou autre. Je suis allé
aussi, j’ai visité la… ce qui est équivalent de nous, des Invalides. Je sais plus, c’est en Corée, je me souviens plus à quel endroit. J’ai visité quoi le village folklorique. Euh le tour, enfin, j’ai visité un petit peu partout, Panmunjeom et bon bien… Moi, je me suis retrouvé aussi sur le pont qui traverse euh… la frontière aussi.
(I would like to ask them to carry on as they’ve done. Every time I went to there, we were amazed to find the progress they’ve realized on the entire sector of the country. Huh? Even with regard to the school uniform, I was impressed from how decent it was compered with the students in France. Also, I had the opportunity to visit the Samsung factory where they made everything. I was then with Mr. Pioué. Visited there, we were shown everything they were producing. Next to the factory, there was something like a boarding school where they were training the young people who would become an engineer in future. I also visited an institution which is equivalent to ‘Invalides’ in France; I don’t remember where it was. I visited a little bit everywhere in Korea. I visited also the folk village, Panmunjeom, and a bridge that crosses the North and the South borders.)
Le pont qui séparait les deux Corées. J’ai visité en gros toute la Corée.
(The bridge separated the two Koreas. I basically visited all of Korea.)
Int.: 한국 사람들한테 하실 말씀은 딱 한 가지 밖에 없으십니다. 지금까지 해왔던 것처럼 계속 그렇게 해나가시기를 당부드립니다. 왜냐면은 한국 가실 때마다 항상 정말 한국 사람의 용기와 그 열심히 사는 모습에 항상 놀라움을 이제 느끼시는데, 그 중에 예를 들시는게, 이제 학생들이라든지
(He has only one thing to say to Korean people: to continue as you have done so far. Whenever he went to Korea, he was always really amazed at the changes which are brought about by the hard worker Koreans. For example, he has talked about the appearance of the Korea students. While the French students wear roughly, but Korean students were always neat.)
열심히, 외모에 대해서도 말씀하셨어요. 굉장히 아주, 여기 프랑스 학생들은 뭐 대충 대충 그렇게 입고 다니는데 한국 학생들은 항상 깔끔하고. 삼성 공장 방문하셨는데 거기에서 이제 그 삼성공장 옆에 무슨 사택 같은 데서 엔지니어들을 교육하는 그런게 있었나 보죠. 거기를 방문이었는데 그때도 굉장히 인상 깊었고. 보훈처, 민족촌, 판문점 여러 곳을 방문하셨는데 가는 곳마다 느끼시는 게 한국 사람들 굉장히 열심히 산다는 모습. 그런 모습을 계속 유지하기를 바란다라는 게
하고 싶은 말씀이십니다.
(He visited also the Samsung factory, and there was a place next to the factory in order to train company’s engineers. He visited various places such as the military hospital, the ethnic village, and Panmunjeom. Wherever he went by, he could feel that Koreans live very enthusiastically. He wants they keep that way up.)
I: 한국전 참전용사로서 자랑스럽습니까?
(Are you proud of being one of the Korean War veterans?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous êtes fier d’avoir participé à la guerre de Corée ?
(Are you proud to have participated in the Korean War?)
V: Oui. J’ai fait mon devoir. Il y a des gens qui vont vous raconter qu’ils ont fait ceci, qu’ils ont fait cela. Moi j’étais, c’est la guerre, j’ai fait mon devoir, partout où j’étais, c’est tout. J’ai pas dit j’ai fait ci, il n’a pas fait ça.
(Yes, I’m proud that I did my duty. Some persons boast that he did this or that.. In my case, I merely did my duty in several wars including that of Korea, that’s all. )
Int.: 내 책임을 다 한 것에 아주 굉장히 자랑스러움을 느낍니다.
(He was very proud of having done his duty.)
I: 또 다른, 그 전투관련 한 에피소드나 이렇게 해서, 저 인터뷰에 더 추가 하고 싶으신 말씀은 없으신가요?
(Do you have any other episode about the battle? Do you have anything else to add to this interview?)
Int.: Donc, tout ça, on a à peu près terminé notre interview. Est-ce que vous avez des épisodes et des petites histoires à ajouter vous aimeriez parler encore davantage ou pas ?
(We will close this interview soon. Do you have any other episodes or stories to add?)
V: Non peuh non. Pour moi le peuple de la Corée, c’est un…
ce sont des amis. Moi j’ai été avec une, euh enfin… dans ma section c’était des coréens. Lorsqu’on se retourne là-bas, moi j’ai l’impression on retourne chez nous. Je me sens chez moi lorsque je retourne en Corée.
(No, there isn’t. To me, the Korean people are like a friend. Um, well, I had a Korean friend who was in my section. Whenever I came back to Korea, I feel like I came back home. I feel at home whenever I return to Korea.)
Int.: 전투보다는 친구들, 제 2중대 아까 소속이라고 말씀하셨는데, 거기 소속된 한국인들 만날 때, 전우들을 만날 때, 내 집에 다시 온 것 같다, 한국에서 그 분들을 다시 만날 때, 내 집에 다시 온 것 같다는 생각을 항상 하신답니다.
그 만큼 한국인들은 나의 친구라고요.
(Rather than about a battle, he has something to say about one of his Korean camrades, who was with him in the 2nd company. Whenever he met him again, he felt at home. By that reason, Korean is for him like a friend.
I: 그 분들 자주 만나셨나요?
(Would you meet them often?)
Int.: Est-ce que vous avez eu l’occasion de revoir vos compagnons de guerre?
(Have you had many opportunities to see your fellow Korean soldiers again?)
Int.: Chaque fois ?
V: Pas chaque fois. J’en ai un qui était dans ma section qui est décédé il y a quelques années que je voyais régulièrement. Et c’est pareil. On arrivait, on s’embrasserait. Donc c’était des frères quoi, des frères d’armes.
(No, not every time. I would regularly see one who was in my section, but he passed away a few years ago. It was always the same: we came to each other and embrace. We were brothers, brothers in arms.
Int.: 전우였고요. 가실 때마다 이제 보실 기회가 했었는데. 몇년 전에 돌아가셨지만. 어쨌든 서로 얼싸 안고 그렇게.
(He was one of his comrades. Every time Mr Grosolet returned, he had a chance to meet this war brother. Unfortunately, he died a few years ago. Everytime, they hugged each other like brothers.)
I: 그 분들한테 특별히 인사 말씀 한번 해 주세요. Please say hello to them.
(Please leave some message for them. Please say hello to them.)
Int.: Si vous avez encore un message à passer, à faire passer à vos amis, frères d’armes.
(Do you have any message to leave for your brothers in arms?)
V: Et bien je souhaite qu’ils aient une belle fin de vie, qu’ils aienti une longue vie et qu’ils se portent
(Well, I wish that they meet a good end of life, and that they enjoy their longevity keeping the health well as I do.)
Int.: 장수하시고, 본인처럼 건강하셨으면 좋겠습니다.
(He hopes them to enjoy their longevity, and to be healthy as he is.)
I: 아유. 너무 감사드립니다. 말씀을 별로 많이 안하신다고 하셨는데 원래, 말씀이 많지 않은신 분인데 원래, 이렇게 많은 증언을 해 주셔서 너무 감사드리고요. 국가보훈처에서 특별히 제작하는 70주년 웹사이트에 선생님의 웹사이트를 올릴 겁니다. 다시 한번 한국민을 대표해서 참전해주시고, 싸워주신 것, 그래서 저희들에게 기회를 주신 것,
(Wow. Thank you so much to talk about your experience. Even though you said you’re a man of few words, you’ve spoken enough from your heart. This interview will be posted on a website dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the Korean War, especially created by MPVA. Once again, I sincerely thank you for participating and fighting on behalf of us, the Korean people, and therefore for giving us a chance.)
Int.: Il vous remercie sincèrement de votre témoignage. Malgré vous avez dit que vous n’aimez pas parler, mais vous avez bien bien parlé. Donc dans le cadre de 70e anniversaire de déclenchement de la Guerre de Corée, soutenu par le MPVA,
donc votre image qu’on a filmée sera en ligne. Je ne sais pas dans quel délai, mais elle sera en ligne pour cette occasion, pour cette cérémonie de l’année prochaine.
(He sincerely thanks you for your testimony. Although you said you are a man of few words, but you’ve spoken enough from your heart. This interview is held as a part of the enterprise celebrating for the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of the Korean War. The image filmed today will be online supported by MPVA. I don’t know as yet exactly when, but it will be online next year for the anniversary.)
V: Moi je crois qu’il y a. Ils ont prévu quelque chose pour le 70e anniversaire. Il est possible que nous retournions l’année prochaine en Corée. Ce sera le 70e anniversaire. Mais je dis si je me sens dans des conditions comme ça éventuellement,
mais si je ne me sens pas capable je n’y retournerai pas.
(I heard that people are preparing something for the 70th anniversary. We may return to Korea next year. It will be the 70th anniversary. If I keep my conditions like now, I will eventually be there. If not, I won’t go away.)
Int.: 70주년 기념해서 프랑스 참전용사들도 내년에 한국에 이제 그 방한하실 어떤 그런 계획을 지금 추진 중이신가 봅니다. 그래서 본인 건강이 허락하신다면 다시 방한하시고 싶다고요.
(To commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Korean War, the French veterans associatin are now planning to visit Korea next year. So, if his health permits, he wants to visit Korea again.)
I: 어느 지역을 가면, 좀 더 많은 참전용사들을 인터뷰 할 수 있을까요?
(Where can I go to find other veterans to interview with?)
Int.: Parmi vous amis ici en France, est-ce qu’il peut
rencontrer d’autres vétérans ?
(Where can I go to find other veterans to interview with?)
V: Bien sûr à Paris, maintenant, il n’y en a plus tellement. Les gens vieillient hein ? Parce qu’on apprend régulièrement up up up [GESTURE OF POPPING SOAP BOBBLES], ils disparaissent.
(Of course, in Paris, there aren’t that many now. We are getting old day by day, hein? We regularly witness that [GESTURE OF POPPING SOAP BOBBLES] they disappear.)
Int.: A Paris, il n’y en a pas. Non? (In Paris, isn’t there anyone else?)
V: Non. Je ne pense pas qu’il y ait… Peut-être qu’il y en a, mais qui se sont pas mis à l’association. Parce qu’il y a peut-être quelques personnes
encore sur l’ensemble, je ne sais pas combien on reste qui sont dissimulées en France. Mais tous les gens, il y a des gens qui sont plus vieux que moi. Euh, quoique maintenant il n’y en a plus tellement qui sont plus vieux. Mais les gens euh… sont seuls, ne se déplacent plus.
(No, I don’t think there be. Of course, there may be some unknown, but they haven’t joined the veterans association. I don’t know exactly how many of them are alive, but there may be a few more people hidden in France. However, even those people might be older than me, for all the veterans I acquainted with, they are all older than me. There are only those who cannot move alone anymore.
Int.: Ou bien en province? 파리에는 안계시는 걸로 알고 계시는데. En province, vous connaissez enfin…
(What about the veterans living in the provinces? If there is no more in Paris, then how about the provinces?)
V: Enfin, tous ceux que je connaissais,
ils sont morts. J’en connais encore quelques amis qui sont, j’en connais un qui a eu la guerre, mais il bouge plus, sort plus, marche plus. Ça fait déjà quelques années. Il a, je ne sais pas, il a peut-être 95 ans, je ne sais pas quel âge il a. J’en ai un autre qui est à euh… Antibes. C’est pareil. Qu’il est de mon âge, mais il voit plus, il sort plus non plus. Donc tous ces gens qui ne sont plus, qui n’ont plus gardé de contact
(Everyone whom I was well acquainted with is dead. I have a very small number of friends still alive; one who passed the war together with me cannot move alone now. He has long since been like that. He’s probably ninety-five years old. There is another living in Antibes. He’s quite the same. He’s of my age, but blind. So he doesn’t go out either. All these people don’t keep in contact any longer with the veterans association.)
Int.: 개인적으로 아시는 분이 몇 분 몇 분이 계시는데 뭐 그분들은 이제 돌아가셨거나, 아니면은 지금 굉장히 육체적으로, 안 보이시거나, 뭐 불편하시거나 그런 분들이시랍니다.
(There are some veterans with whom he is acquainted personally. However, they are all physically handicapped, either blind or seriously ill.)
(Ok, I see.)
V: Parce que vous vous vous souvenez lorsqu’on allait à Pont Marie il y a quelques années, vous voyiez encore quelques personnes qui venaient un petit peu. Maintenant c’est [hop !] trois-quatre c’est tout. Et qu’il y en a même pas certains qui font partie du bataillon, mais qui n’ont même pas fait la Corée. Ou qu’il en fait
après il y a une section, comment s’appelle, section d’honneur qui est resté jusqu’en 19…55, je crois. Mais des gens qui n’ont pas, ils n’avaient pas participé aux guerres, à la guerre de Corée.
(Before several years, we still had quite a few veterans to come in with the commemorating ceremony at Pont-Marie in Paris. Now, it’s just three or four. There are some veterans who pretend to be a part of the French battalion, but they have not participated in the war itself. They came to Korea afterwards as the section so-called ‘Honors section’ which remained in Korea until 1955. But those people didn’t take part in the battle; they hadn’t really participated in the Korean War.)
Int.: 6.25 행사가 매년 파리에서 열리는데, 그 때, 이제 보시면 아시겠지만은, 예전에는 몇 분 계셨는데 이제는 거의 한분도 안나오신다고요.
(For commemorating the Korean War, an event is held every year in Paris. Before several years, there used to be quite a few veterans who attended with. Now almost no one is coming.)
Int.: Merci beaucoup.
(Thank you so much.)
V: Je vous en prie.
[End of Recorded Material]