Ian Crawford

\Crawford, Ian McLean

00:30:14

Transcribed by Roneel Rama on 30/7/25

 

00:00:00 [Beginning of recorded material]

Interviewer: :It’s October 9th 2023, beautiful city of Sydney, Australia. My name is Jongwoo Han. I am the President of Korean War Legacy Foundation which has more than 1600 Korean war veterans interview, in-depth on average more than thirty minutes from all twenty-two countries. I was here in Melbourne and Brisbane in 2019. I did some interviews of Australian Korean War veterans interview. 

00:00:30

I: Not many, so, that’s why we are doing this, okay. To preserve your memory first of all because it’s been more than seventy years. But most importantly we want to provide more curricula resources, real curricula resources about the Korean war when teachers talking about the Korean war in their classroom. So this interview will be used by Australian teachers and many other teachers from all of the countries.

00:01:00

I: To talk about the Korean war from the direct witness of the Korean war veterans, and today it’s going to be you, Ian Crawford. So it’s my great pleasure and honor to meet you sir, and thank you for inviting me to your beautiful house.

Ian Crawford: :Thank you Jongwoo. I am delighted to be doing this. It is so important that we record the story of the Korean war because it is unique in Australian history,  there were so many aspects 

00:01:30

C: That we need to record today.

I: Excellent. So please introduce yourself. What is your name, sir?

C: My name is Ian McLean Crawford.

I: Mm-hmm, could you spell it?

C: Yes. I A N which is Scottish for John.

I: Mm.

C: McLean. Capital M c Capital L e a n.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: Crawford, C R A W F O R D.

I: What is your birthday, sir?

C: My birthday is the 30th of December, 1931.

00:02:00

I: So you were born in the thirties?

C: In the thirties, yes. Just got in to the thirties.

I: Last day of the year?

C: Yes

I: Wow, and you’re born in ’31, so you are now 90?

C: 91, rising 92

I: 92?

C: The end of the year.

I: By this end of the year, right?

C: Yes.

I: So you are currently 91?

C: Yes.

I: Yeah? You look great, sir.

00:02:30

C: Thank you.

I: What is the secret?

C: Being looked after by my wife.

I: Oh, yeah, by the way I was received by your wife, Catherine, right?

C: Yes.

I: I hope that I can bring her here at the end of our interview.

C: She has been a great help to me in the work I’ve done on the Korean War, encouraging me, pointing out things that could be done better. So I’m very grateful to her and I’m very grateful that she’s going to be involved in this recognition.

00:03:00

I: Excellent, and you told me that she was working for education department here in Australia?

C: In Canberra. She worked for.

I: In Canberra?

C: Yes.

I: Yeah, In the capital city

C: In the capital city.

I: Great.

C: We had a separate government system for the Australian Capital Territory.

I: Exactly.

C: And they had their own education organization and she worked for that.

I: ACT, right?

C: ACT.

I: So, where were you born in Australia?

C: I was born in Sydney, here in Sydney.

00:03:28

I: And tell me about your family background, when you were growing up, your parents, your father, your mom and your siblings.

C: Right. My father,  was born in Scotland, but he was a radio officer.

I: Uh-huh.

C: In the merchant navy, in the P and O, and he came to Australia and met my mother who had come to Australia with her family in 1912.

00:04:00

I: From where?

C: From England.

I: From England?

C: And the whole family came here.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: Looking for opportunities, it’s quite a story. My grandfather and his eldest son came ahead of the rest of the family to find work. Couldn’t find it in Western Australia, so they caught a train, to Adelaide and left a message for the family that was coming on in a later ship.

00:04:30

C: Don’t get off the ship in Western Australia. Keep on coming round to Adelaide. I’ve found work here, so they stayed in Adelaide. My uncle, the one that accompanied my grandfather went off to the First World War and was at Gallipoli and was wounded. 

I: Mmhm.

C: In France and the youngest son was in the Second World War.

00:04:59

I: Mm.

C: As was my father. But because we lived in Sydney, and we lived in Mosman, which is by the harbor, and because my father had been in the Merchant navy, we were very familiar with the ship traffic, and we knew all the ships, all the liners that came to Sydney. Every day there would have been a ship coming into Sydney.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: Because air hadn’t become so important, so I was of course being in Mosman, 

00:05:30

C: There was access to sailing. We did a lot of sailing. So, I loved the maritime environment.

I: I see, that is why you ended up in the navy?

C: Yes.

I: Yup.

C: Yes.

I: What about siblings?

C: Ah, I had a brother and he went into the army after hearing of my experience.

I: Older brother?

C: My younger brother.

I: Younger brother?

C: Yes, went into the army.

I: So there were two sons, only?

C: Two sons, and one daughter.

00:06:00

I: Ah, you’re the eldest?

C: I’m the eldest. My brother went into the army and he fought in Vietnam. He was awarded a medal for bravery and for leadership and he did very well in the army.

I: Very good. Tell me about your educational background. What school you went through and 

00:06:30

I: When did you graduate high school?

C: Yes.

I: What year?

C: I went to a school called North Sydney High, which has a record now of being the, have the best record for a boy’s high school in the whole of Australia,

I: Ah.

C: And when I was in the Navy, when I was an Admiral, 25 percent of the Admirals of the Australian Navy came from that school.

00:07:00

I: Wow.

C: But most people went from that school at the age of thirteen to join the Navy, to join the Naval College. I tried, but my eyesight was not good enough, so I had to wait until I was 17.

I: Mm-hmm

C: But it has a great record of students going to the Navy and also into the Royal Military College at Duntroon. It prided itself.

I: Duntroon?

C: Yeah, Duntroon. It prided itself in providing 

00:07:30

C: Officers in the Navy, Army and Air Force.

I: Yes. I actually drove through Duntroon.

C: Did you?

I: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

I: It was beautiful.

C: It is.

I: And there is a golf course too.

C: There is and in winter they have parades there. They have the Queen’s birthday parade.

I: Ah-ha.

C: It’s a very ceremonial college.

I: I see.

C: And I had a nephew who went to Duntroon as well.

I: So when did you graduate North Sydney High School?

00:08:00

C: I left, I finished at the school in 1948 and joined the Navy in 1949, and because we had already been educated to matriculation level, we went to Naval College, and we had a very concentrated naval focus on gunnery, navigation, seamanship.

I: So it was like a university, Naval college?

C: Yeah, we do have a.

I: Can you explain about Naval College? Yes

00:08:30

C: Naval College was set up based on, patented on what the Royal Navy did, what the British Navy did when young men went in at the age of 13. We weren’t getting all the people we needed through that 13-year-old entry and therefore we introduced a special entry, the 17-year-old entry. 

I: Mmhmm

C: I was entered under that scheme and we used to have a concentrated focus on Naval subjects. 

00:09:00

C: Because we had already matriculated, and we joined the senior year and learned our naval subjects and then left to go to the United Kingdom. Our Navy was not big enough in those days to give us the range of experience that was needed. So we left Australia.

I: Hold on. How many years, in the Naval College, four years?

C: No, six months.

I: Just six months? 

C: Yes.

I: Uh, okay.

C: And I’ll come to how we compensated 

00:09:30

C: For not going to university later on. But we joined the senior year and those who joined at the age of 13 did four years because, and they had to progress to the matriculation level.

I: Oh, I see. So because you joined at 17.

C: We had already achieved that level of education.

I: Exactly, so that you don’t have to do, but just six months and you went to.

C: Of concentrated naval subjects.

I: And then U.K?

00:10:00

C: Then the U.K.

I: Where did you go in the U.K?

C: Well, because we were young officers, we travelled first class, P&O to the United Kingdom, and then we joined.

I: What do you mean first class? In the airplane?

C: No, in a liner.

I: Oh, okay.

C: And then we joined as 17-year-old cadets.

I: Yup..

C: We joined the British training cruiser, which was a heavy cruiser, HMS Devonshire.

00:10:30

C: Which had been converted from its warfare role into a training ship, where we did two cruises, one to the Mediterranean and one to the West Indies. And in that we slung hammocks, we scrubbed decks, we ran boats, we kept watches, we did all the things that a sailor does, but we went to school in the afternoon to further our naval education, and that was two, we did that in 1949 

00:11:00

C: And early 1950. First cruise was to the Mediterranean and that was very interesting. It was just after the war and we went to places which were just recovering from the war,

I: Mmmhmm.

C: like the south of France, Malta, where the British sleep.

I: Beautiful.

C: It was, and we furthered our training, did a lot of sailing there, and then the next

00:11:30

C: Cruise was to the West Indies, and when we were on those cruises, we went to a number or ports but we also had sailing picnics, and we’d get into a naval whaler or cutter, sail away to a remote beach and stay there for the whole weekend with our instructors, just relaxing.

I: Mm-hmm

C: And in the Mediterranean, 

00:12:01

C: We went to the Isle of Capri. And in the West Indies we went to Grenada, to a remote beach there. So we had a very interesting training, but we learned a lot. Then we were promoted to the rank of midshipman, and a lot of people say that a midshipman is the lowest form of Marine life. And I was appointed to a light cruiser, HMS Ceylon. Ceylon is now called Sri Lanka, and we were to be the flagship

00:12:30

C: of the British East Indies station based in Trincomalee. And our area of interest was the East Coast of Africa, the Persian Gulf and India. And we were setting down to, and on our way out there we picked up Somali seamen and stokers who were straight out of the bush and we had to kit them up and teach them the basics of looking after a ship.

I: So they are still doing that, they are the piracy there.

00:13:00

C: Interestingly you say that because the station orders were to suppress piracy and slavery.

I: Right.

C: Slavery was still going on. But we didn’t stay there long. We were just about to go to India and our doctor had signed 600 certificates for 600 alcoholics, because that was the only way you could get a drink in India in those days. 

00:13:30

I: {Laughs}

C: And instead of going there, the Korean War broke out and the British had sent one of their cruisers back to England and they didn’t want to, they didn’t know the way the war was going to develop and they didn’t want to leave the Far East Station, which had previously been called the China station, light, short of one cruiser. So we were quickly transferred to the Far East Fleet 

I: Hmm.

C: And we went to Singapore, we prepared the ship, maintenance, 

00:14:00

C: Did training. In damage control, putting out fires, and then we left, gave the impression that we were heading back to the East Indies Fleet, back to Sri Lanka, but overnight we turned around and went off to, top secret, went to Hong Kong. And as we came into Hong Kong, Top Secret, there was Jenny’s side party, people who used to keep the side of the ship clean with a welcome HMS Ceylon, so we stayed there.

00:14:30

C: For a few days and we were joined there by an Australian destroyer, HMAS Waramanga.

I: HM

C: AS, 

I: AS

C: Registered as an Australian ship, Waramanga. W A R R A M U N G A. Waramanga. It’s a tribal class destroyer we had.

I: So W A R R A M U N G A?

C: Correct, yes.

I: So what kind of ship was it?

C: It was a destroyer.

00:15:00

I: Destroyer.

C: Based on the British tribal class. They had tribal class called the Māori, Eskimo, I forgot some of the others. But we had three of them in Australia. Waramanga was an Aboriginal tribe and Arunta.

I: So, explain what destroyer means, how big was it, how many crew members there, what kind of weapons they do.

C: Okay.

I: What do they do actually?

00:15:30

C: Multi-role, mainly gunnery and anti-submarine. They were escorts but they could operate and, shore gunfire. So we had committed ourselves, I’m talking now as an Australian, even though I was an Australian in a British ship. We had committed ourselves to have two ships in Japan following the Second World War.

00:16:00

I: No no no no. HMAS, that’s an Australian ship?

C: Yes.

I: So you were in the HMS

C: I was in HMS Ceylon.

I: Ceylon. S, Ceylon what? S A?

C: Ceylon is C E Y L O N.

I: C E Y L O N. Oh, Ceylon, okay. Yeah.

C: And the British had a class of Cruiser, light Cruiser, and they were colony class Cruisers. 

I: Yup.

00:16:30

C: So there’s Fiji, Jamaica, Kenya, Ceylon.

I: So you are in the HMS Ceylon too, now in the HMAS Waramanga.

C: I wasn’t in Waramanga. Waramanga was with us, part of our force.

I: But you were still in the British ship?

C: Oh yes, I stayed with the British ships for three and a half years.

I: So how many Australian Navy crew there?

C: In the British ship?

I: Yeah.

C: One, me. [Laughs]

I: You’re the only one?

C: I was the only one.

00:17:02

I: So then you served in the Korean war in a British ship?

C: Yes.

I: As an Australian?

C: Yes, yes.

I: Midshipman?

C: Yes

I: Huh, that’s very interesting.

C: Yes.

I: Why didn’t you transfer to Waramanga?

C: Waramanga, because I was in a pattern of training. We had a sequence of courses to do. We had our training crews at the time where we learned seamanship and did certain skills. Then we had to upgrade in as midshipmen.

I: Mm-hmm.

00:17:30

C: As midshipmen in a cruiser or some people went to an aircraft carrier, some people went to battleships. But we were all doing our sea time, under training as 17 and 18-year old midshipmen.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: When we finished that, we went back to the United Kingdom and after the Korean War, after some time in Singapore, I went back to the U.K. We did more courses and this is where I come to how we compensated for not going to university.

00:18:00

I: Right.

C: We did not go to university, but we wanted to have the educational background. So we went to the Royal Naval College at Greenwich, in London, and we had a general education course, and they taught us philosophy. We had to write papers, we had interviews with a tutor, we had tutorials. It was a marvelous experience.

00:18:30

C: Compensating for not having been to university.

I: But by the time that you were in Hong Kong.

C: Yes.

I: You were qualified to be the regular Navy crew, right?

C: I was regular Navy right from the start, Yes.

I: Exactly, so why didn’t you go to Australian ship, Waramanga?

C: Because Waramanga wasn’t part of the program. We were participating in the Royal Navy’s program. Because,

00:19:00

C: We wanted the range of experience. We didn’t have light cruisers; we didn’t have enough ships to give us the range of experience that the British could give.

I: Okay, so they wanted to keep you there in the British ship.

C: The British ship, and to go back to England after being ashore in Singapore at a Naval air station, once again more of our experience. I went back in a troop ship.

I: So when did you participate in the Korean war? When?

C: In HMS Ceylon.

00:19:30

C: From 1950 until 1951.

I: Wow, that’s very interesting, right?

C: Yeah. So we were in Hong Kong 

I: Mmmhmm. 

C: And we were taking off for Korea and we were called back.

I: Oh.

C: Because the Americans had said to the British government, we’re in trouble in Korea. We’ve been pushed into the Pusan perimeter.

00:20:00

C: Can we have some soldiers?

I: Right.

C: And the British said yes, maybe next year. We’ll be able to let you have a brigade from the British army of the Rhine. The Americans said, too late, we may not still be there.

I: Right.

C: So the British put together a brigade from the garrison in Hong Kong and there was the 1st Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland highlanders and the 1st Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment. The 1st Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

00:20:30

C: Was put on board our ship. So on, the 1st Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment was put on board HMS Unicorn, which was an aircraft repair ship.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: And escorted by HMAS Waramanga, we took off for Korea, and then, as we came into the Taiwan Straits, we were joined by another Australian destroyer, HMAS Bataan. 

00:21:00

C: But,

I: When was it? When you passing around the Taiwan Straits?

C: August 1950. But then we had all the young officers of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in the gun room where the midshipmen were. And one of them came up to me and said, you’re Australian? And I said yes. He said, I’m Australian too, but I’ve never been to Australia.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: And his story, 

00:21:30

C: His name was Mike Cawthorn.

I: Mm-hmm.

C: It’s an important story, that he gets the recognition. His father had been in the First World War, had been wounded, came back to Australia and wanted to continue soldiering. Australia did not have a regular army. We had a regular Navy and a regular Air force. We did not have a regular army. 

I: Hmm.

C: So they said, if you want to be in the permanent forces, you have to go.

00:22:00

C: Either to the British army, or we suggest to you, you go to the British army in India. 

I: Mm-hmm.

C: So he went to the British army in India, 

I: [Laughs]

C: Was promoted to Major General.

I: Major General?

C: Eventually, eventually. And on the way, he married a woman and they had a child. And as was the practice in British colonial times, people were sent back to boarding school in England.

00:22:30

C: So this fellow, Mike Cawthorn, born of Australian parents, never been to Australia, went to boarding school in England. Finished his schooling, left school, went into the army and off to Hong Kong to join the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. 

I: Hmm.

C: And he came and we struck up a friendship. Sadly, he was killed on the last day that the Argyll and Sutherland highlanders were in action.

00:23:00

C: And so one of the challenges I’ve accepted is to get him recognized in Australia and at the War Memorial, in our role of honor. We only recognized people who were in Australian ships and units, and battalions. He was not, but he gets some form of recognition and we display his medals there. But, I later met his father. His father was a very distinguished Australian, went into foreign affairs.

00:23:30

C: Diplomatic service, and I’m very proud that I’ve met Mike Cawthorn.

I: Mm-hmm

C: So that was the start of my time. We arrived in Pusan with the Argyles, escorted by two Australian destroyers and with the HMS Unicorn with the Middlesex regiment. 

I: Mmhmm.

C: We landed them. It wasn’t an opposed landing. We just came to the wharf.

00:24:00

C: And they went off to the front line. They were in action almost immediately, and we went about our naval duties and the first really important action was the landing at Incheon. 

I: Mmhmm.

C: We were part of the escort force for the landing at Incheon, then.

I: So tell me about what you mean by escort. What kind of role 

00:24:30

I: Did your ship play then?

C: Right.

I: By the way, what was your specialty at the time in the ship, in Ceylon?

C: The job I had in the ship, in action stations. I was the assistant gun direction officer for the anti-aircraft armament on the starboard side of the ship. So we were in a platform behind the bridge, and our job, look out or radar would find enemy aircraft approaching.

00:25:00

C: And we would decide which off the armament we would direct.

I: Actually, you didn’t have much role to play because there was no enemy aircraft, much.

C: But there was. Our sister ship, HMS Jamaica 

I: Uhuh.

C: Was attacked by a North Korean aircraft.

I: Really?

C: And one of my team, a New Zealander, was wounded.

I: When was it?

C: When was it? 

I: Yeah.

C: In August.

00:25:30

C: No. September.

I: September.

C: 1950.

I: Uh-huh. So North Korean airplane attacked the ship?

C: The ships in Incheon harbor.

I: Incheon harbor.

C: Very foolhardy.

I: Yeah, oh, this is very interesting. But before we get into your naval routine mission.

C: Yes.

I: I want to ask this question. You went through very good high school, North Sydney.

C: Yes.

I: High school, which produced

00:26:02

I: 25% of the Admiral for the Australian Navy.

C: Eventually, yes.

I: Yeah. Did you learn anything about Korea at the time?

C: Nothing.

I: Nothing?

C: In fact, we had no idea where Korea. When they said the Korean War has broken out, we had no idea where it was.

I: What about other countries, like China or Japan?

C: Certainly Japan. Japan had been a threat to Australia in the Second World War, and China is so huge.

00:26:30

I: Right, so you knew about them but you never knew anything about Korea?

C: No.

I: Now, you are the one who actually contributed to the establishment of the Korean War Memorial in Anzac Street in Canberra.

C: And, I think it’s very important, for a number of things.

I: Isn’t that ironic? You didn’t know anything about Korea, now you are all about Korea, right?

C: Yeah, and I’m very anxious that we understand Korea through understanding the Korean culture.

00:27:00

C: And I impress upon Korean people and Australian museums and art galleries that they should have Korean works of art and maps. Maps is the best way of understanding a country.

I: Man, I love this person. I love it. I want to share my books that I published with you 

C: Oh.

I: Later, okay. I didn’t bring it because it’s too heavy, but I will send it from my home, okay.

00:27:31

C: Thank you.

I: It’s all available in the Amazon, but I want to send it to you. So, you didn’t know anything about Korea, but now you are the Korean War veteran. How do you put that into a perspective?

C: It took me some time. I wondered when I left the ship in Singapore, 

I: Yup.

C: Whether I would have any, whether my experience in the Korean War, other than my learning shipboard

00:28:00

C: skills. Would have any impact. And it took a while for me to appreciate that I had met Korean people. I had an understanding of East Asia. Until that time, we always spoke about the Far East,

I:  Mmhmm.

C: And then suddenly, in its own right, there is the East Asia. We had to understand the East Asia.

I: Yeah, it’s nothing fat East from Australian perspective. It’s right over there, 

00:28:30

I: Right?

C: Exactly.

I: It’s a British perspective. That is 

C: A European, yes, the Far East, and they used to call their fleet, the Far East Fleet.

I: Yeah.

C: And then I started taking an interest in East Asia, inspired by my knowledge of Korea, meeting Korean people. Especially, when I was doing the Korean War Memorial and got to meet Korean people. But then I realized that I had to, not just Korea.

00:29:00

C: I had to understand the Chinese and the Japanese, especially the Chinese. The Chinese is such a complex country. There’s so many minorities, and that is very important for children to understand.

I: Absolutely.

C: The number of minority people that are in China, which makes it very difficult for the administration of China, and they cannot generalize on any understanding of China. They had to understand all the minorities.

I: Exactly, and 

00:29:30

I: Admiral, the Korean War was not just between North and South Korea, it was the war between UN forces and China and Russia.

C: Russia didn’t come into the war.

I: But they provided everything.

C: And they, as well as providing materials, they provided guidance, and that is very important because.

I: Absolutely.

C: Because most of the casualties in the Korean War were soldiers and airmen. But, the

00:30:00

C: It was Stalin who warned the Korean president against getting involved in a war with the Western allies because they had maritime supremacy.

I: Exactly.

C: And maritime supremacy would determine the outcome of the war. 

I: Mmhm

C: And in our official history there is at the end a recognition of the importance of maritime supremacy. My soldier friends don’t like my talking about this.

00:30:30

C: But this is so important in so much that we do.

I: Absolutely.

C: And because we could interdict their lines of communication, and

I: Logistics.

C: Yes, and of course when we were pushed almost out of Korea, we lost our airfields.

I: Yup.

C: Where did our aircraft come from? Aircraft carriers.

I: Absolutely.

C: So, maritime supremacy is so important.

I: Yup and that’s one

00:31:00

I: Topic that I learned from the geopolitical, you know, coursework in my PhD program. 

C: And, I’m

I: So.

C: And, I’m sure Norman Lee would have told you about that

I: Yes. You didn’t know nothing about Korea. Have you been back to Korea since.

C: Yes I have.

I: When did you go back?

C: I went back when I proposed to the government that we should have a Korean War Memorial and they accepted it

I: When was it?

C: In about 19

00:31:30

Female Voice: 91

C: Was it, 1991? Yeah, but I proposed that before then. And, I thought I better get, go to Korea to see what it was I going to represent. 

I: So, you proposed the idea of establishing a Korean War memorial in Canberra.

C: Yes.

I: In 1991, right?

C: Yes, and I 

00:32:00

C: Was challenged by the department of in Canberra, the capital authority, the national capital authority. That I would have to raise the funds and I had to produce a design concept.

I: Yup.

C: And I thought, well now if I am going to make all of these proposals I better

00:32:30

C: Because in the ship I only saw Pusan and Daecheongdo. That was the only places that I ever went ashore.

I: Daecheongdo, that’s one of the five 

C: Daecheong

I: Small islands in West Sea.

C: Yes.

I: Yeah, Very close to Hwanghae Province.

C: Yes.

I: Yup.

C: Right around the corner to the Taedong River and Chinnamp’o

I: Yes, so D A E C H E O N G Do. 

C: Do.

I: Do means island.

C: Ah yes.

00:33:00

C: We called it Taecheongdo.

I: Yes.

C: Hm.

I: Go ahead sir.

C: So, that was all I had seen. I had never, and of course, after my time we had battles like the Battle of Kapyong, Battle of Maryang-san. I had never seen the locations of these.

I: Mmhm.

C: I’d never been to the National the Korean War Memorial, uh, cemetery in Pusan. So, I suggested that I should go to

00:33:30

C: Pusan, that was in Korea. I was going to England and the government said, yes they, we will pay for your Korean part of it but going on to England is your expense. So, I went to Korea. Met people.

I: In 1991?

C: In 1991.

I: Whom did you meet? The Korean government people?

C: Um, yes but mainly the Korean War Veterans Association

I: Mmhm.

00:34:00

C: And the Australian Embassy. They provided me with the support. And I met with local people in the Kapyoung Province.

I: I see. But in 1991, were you retired already?

C: Yes, yes I had retired. 

I: Ok.

C: So, I enjoyed that and I met one of your heroes, General Paik Sun-yup.

I: Paik Sun-yup. 

C: Paik Sun-yup.

I: Yeah.

C: Very impressed by him. 

I: Absolutely.

00:34:30

C: Met him a few times.

I: Uh-huh.

C: And he, eventually when we had our memorial and we dedicated our memorial, he led a mission from Korea to help us dedicate.

I: Yup.

C: At the ceremony. But, I was most impressed by him.

I: Yup.

C: One of the, so I enjoyed my visit to Korea. I enjoyed meeting the people and noted that they had a similar interest that we had. 

00:35:00

C: So.

I; So, let me ask this question. You didn’t know anything about Korea. Now you are one of most proud and, you know, established Korean War Veterans in Australia and you contribute to the establishment of Korean War Memorial in Canberra. How do you, and you never been in the soil when you were in Korea, right?

C: Right.

I: When you saw Korea in 1991, what did you see? How did you feel about it?

00:35:30

I: Tell me, please.

C: I, We had things, heard stories. We’d seen on tv the absolute devastation of Korea due to the Korean War.

I: Mmhm.

C: Going back in 1991, and it progresses from there. The huge success, the economic success, the political success.

I: Democratization.

C: Yes and the person I met 

00:36:00

C: A few times in these visits was Kim Dae-jung

I: Mmhm.

C: And I was most impressed by him. 

I: Absolutely.

C: And in one of my visits to Korea, he had just come back from Pyongyang

I: North Korea

C: And we were a little mission of veterans from many countries and he talked to us in the Blue House about having

00:36:30

C: Just come back and I thought here am I, the first Australian, to hear about his experience in Pyongyang.

I: That must be 2000.

C: 2000, after we had dedicated the Korean War Memorial.

I: Ohh.

C: So, it wasn’t just interest in Korea. I became interested in the whole of East Asia and I have books up there on East Asia.

I: Uh-huh.

C: And I try to understand East Asia

00:37:00

C: The difference between the various societies and it’s easy because China is so complex. You can’t

I: But when you saw Korea in 1991 and 2000, how Korea look to you?

C: Brilliant

I: Tell me, because Admiral as I told you, this interview will be heard by young children all over the world. They don’t have any idea about Korea in 1950 and after that. 

00:37:30

I: Please, explain in detail 

C: I was interested in the schooling and how committed the young people were to their education. Sometimes too committed, it can be dangerous, and they can do harm to themselves. But,

I: That’s true, actually.

C: Yeah, so  I enjoyed traveling from 

00:38:00

C: Seoul to Pusan in the very fast train. Seeing the countryside, seeing the rural areas.  And just realizing how important access to farming country it was and as of course how important the sea is. And, but the modernization of your cities while retaining the essential Korean culture.

00:38:30

I: Huh.

C: And I think that was so important in anything we do. Yes, modernization and I realize you weren’t being westernized, you were being modernized and it is important to make that distinction.

I: That is very scholastic distinction.

C: Distinction, yes.

I: You make an excellent point. Westernization and modernization sometimes goes together but it’s different.

C: And 

00:39:00

C: Retaining your culture.

I: Absolutely.

C: Is so important.

I: Oh, I love this interview. So, had you ever imagined that Korea would become like this today?

C: No, no

I: Did you underestimate Korean people?

C: Yes we did, because some of the 

I: Oh, that’s a very honest answer, actually [Laughs]

C: Yes, because our contact with the Korean Navy, Republic of Korea Navy 

00:39:30

C: Was not always, that you didn’t have the big ship experience; therefore, some of our operations were not as successful as they could have been. We did not appreciate the contribution to our operation.

I: You mean during the war.

C: During the war.

I: Yeah, there was not much navy

C: No.

I: Navy in Korea.

C: No.

I: And

C: So, we look down on the

00:40:00

C: Republic of Korea Navy.

I: Hm

C: Now with my visits to Korea, meeting Korean people, meeting the Korean military. 

I: Yes.

C: I have a respect for, this is part of the modernization. Not the westernization, the modernization.

I: That is a very important point, here audience. The difference between modernization and westernization that is very important point. So, we will talk about that later.

00:40:30

I: But, so now Koreans are selling their weapons to Australia, 

C: That’s right.

I: You know that, right?

C: That’s right.

I: Can you believe it?

C: I’m delighted, delighted.

I: [Laughs]

C: I still think there’s a lot to be done for greater understanding of your culture. That because the Japanese took so much from your country for their museums. There’s not a lot for them to release

00:41:00

C: to Australia to put into our museums. So, yes we can have some of your items, not many, but the important thing is to have maps to show where they came from and tell the story. Now, there’s a great department store in Seoul which also has a museum. I’ve forgotten it’s name now but that tells the story of Korea going back to early times

00:41:30

C: And the Korean War.

I: I will send you my book that is about the Korean capital city of Hanyang during the Joseon Dynasty.

C: Ah, yes.

I: And then Gyeongseong during the Japanese control and then Seoul. But, it’s the same exact location where that went through all different eras of state and society relations. And if you read that book, you will have a pretty good idea of how Korea was able to accomplish simultaneous economic development. 

00:42:00

I: And democratization. So, I will send it to you.

C: Yes. The other thing I admired and I learned was the script, which is a bit of phonetic representation of sounds than any other script in the world.

I: You mean the alphabet.

C: Yes. 

I: Korean language.

C: Yes. 

I: Yes.

C: Hangul

I: Hangul, yeah.

C: And that impressed me that 

I: That’s a very scientific 

C: Yeah, it is. 

I: Yeah.

C: And I forget the name of the emperor

00:42:30

I: Sejong

C: Sejong

I: King Sejong, 

C: Sejong, yes. 

I: Sejong.

C: Sejong, yes 

I: Yup

C: And of course he would have had his experts. But he encouraged.

I: Yes.

C: That and it is now recognized as the best representation of sound of all alphabets in the world.

I: Yes, so exactly one tribal groups in Indonesia in very distant island

C: Yes.

I: They adopted Korean characters

00:43:00

C: I didn’t know that

I: And they speak their language with Korean alphabet. Korean consonants Korean vowels

C: How interesting. Do they use the form of the script?

I: Yeah!

C: How interesting.

I: How interesting.

C: Yeah.

I: But, how interesting that you point out.

C: Hm.

I: I am very, very

C: Well,

I: Thankful about this opportunity.

C: But, there’s so much for us to learn from mutual understanding.

I: Yes.

C: Of our cultures.

00:43:30

I: So, when we host the conference, this is what my foundation is doing. We produce the curriculum book for U.S., U.K., and Canada. I show the Canadian books and U.S. and U.K. books to your wife, Catherine while you were preparing.

C: Yes.

I: And we are going to do produce Australian book on it’s participation in the Korean War.

C: Good.

I: And when we do publish for those history teachers.

00:44:00

I: So, my foundation’s motto is “Of the teacher, for the teacher, by the teacher” otherwise nobody going to talk about the Korean War in 10 years.

C: Yeah, very true and that worries me.

I: So, when we publish the curriculum book, we going to host World Congress of History Teachers. So, many Australian teachers will be invited and then history teachers from other countries also will be invited.

C: Oh exciting.

I: To either Sidney or, well, Canberra, 

00:44:30

I: Wherever where that we can find the good rate for the hotel. And then we going to talk about it and when we do that, I think you have to come and talk about Korea.

C: Well, I’m not a historian. I’m not a

I: But, you point very important thing: Westernization, Modernization, and the map. 

C: Yes.

I: No other Korean War Veteran actually told me about it. So, okay.

C: [Laughs]

I: So, you are proud about what Korea has 

00:45:00

I: Accomplished, right

C: Oh, yes and proud that we were involved in it. And you had to go through certain stages of democratization but you have done it and I enjoy the visits and the links between Australia and Korea. For example, we have an Australian War Memorial.

I: Mmhm

0045:30

C: When you were developing in Seoul the Korean War Memorial

I: Mmhm

C: You were very much influenced by what we did and you had liaison people in Canberra. And when I was most recently in Korea, the director of the Korean War Memorial

I: Yeah.

C: Which is a museum.

I: Yup..

C: Singled me out, found me, and thanked me for what Australia did

00:46:00

C: To help them develop the Korean.

I: Wow, I didn’t know about that.

C: Yeah and so they had a person on the liaison staff with the Australian War Memorial to learn the way we did it. And it’s an interesting thing, as well as being a memorial, it’s a museum.

I: Yes.

C: It’s what you have done in Seoul.

I: I work with the War Memorial. I gave the drawings that was done by the Korean veterans.

00:46:30

I: And I donate them to that so I closely work with them but I was very impressed about the museums in Canberra. 

C: Yes.

I: I was very impressed with the War Memorial but I also went to the Museum of Australian Democracy in Old Parliament building.

C: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

I: And national capital exhibition. You did super job.

C: Yes.

I: Oh, so the Korean War Memorial learned from your memorial?

C: Yes.

I: I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.

00:47:00

C: And I was on the Council of the Australian War Memorial for seven years and I think I was the only Korean War veteran to be on the council of the War Memorial. So, I was very touched when I went to Korea last time. The Lieutenant General who was the director of the Korean War Memorial, in Seoul, wanted to tell me how much they appreciated.

I: Yup.

C: The experience of their member who worked with the Australian War Memorial 

00:47:30

C: And our contribution to your development.

I: But the problem is, you said all this good things about Korean War and what good came actually out of the Korean War and your service. 

C: Yes.

I: Korea is now tenth largest economy in the world. Tenth largest economy in the world. 

C: Yeah

I: Their economy is stronger than Australia.

C: Yes.

I: And they also accomplished the democracy at the same time. So, it’s a good story to tell but not much.

00:48:00

I: It’s been known as Forgotten War. And in Australian standards and curriculum, they don’t talk much about the Korean War. Why is this?

C: Ah, that’s interesting because we faced that problem. We didn’t have a regular army. So, when we went to war in the First World War.

I: Yeah.

C: And the Second World War, we had to have volunteers. We had had a militia,

00:48:30

C: Who were training for war but we did not have a regular army. So, when the First World War came and Second World War, we had to recruit volunteers. And there was hardly a family that was not touched by having volunteers in the First World War and the Second World War. 

I: Yup.

C: So, when it came to the Korean War we still did

00:49:00

C: Not have a regular army. People had to be volunteers to go and so we did not have a big force. Most of the people

I: You didn’t have a regular army?

C: We didn’t have a regular army. 

I: Are you sure?

C: Oh yes. Eventually we did.

I: Uh-huh

C: But at that time, when we first went to war and people had to be volunteers.

I: I know.

C: Yeah, 

I: They volunteered, they were not drafted but, still, you did not have a regular army.

00:49:30

C: We didn’t have a regular army.

I: Ok.

C: So, when they came back from the Korean War these volunteers, they hadn’t been to the Second World War. They said we’ve been to war and all the fellows back here said you call that a war?

I: That there was a conflict.

C: Yes. So, and as President Truman

I: Uh-huh

00:50:00

C: Said to get these force committed to the Korean War and called it a police action.

I: Yes. 

C: And we were condemned to be thought of as a police action. So, the Korean War did not get the recognition and that has a very serious effect on the veterans who came back from Korea.

I: Mmhm.

C: They wanted recognition and they did not get it.

00:50:30

C: And it had a  psychological effect on them.

I: Yup.

C: The Second World War fellows came back and got back into civilian employment. We had what we called post-war reconstruction in Australia which was very important to get the economy going again. And the Korean War had some impact on that. Of course the first winter was such a desperately cold winter there was a demand for wool.

00:51:00

C: And there was the belief, because some General MacArthur’s behavior 

I Yup.

C: It would become the Third World War. And there was a demand for strategic  materials. Australia had those strategic materials and those demands. So Australia’s economy picked up because of the, or was influenced by the Korean War. But we did not, the veterans did not get the recognition. The sailors and the people who were 

00:51:30

C: Volunteers came back from Korea and went into civilian life. The sailors and the airmen were regulars. We had regular Army, regular Navy, regular Air Force 

I: Yup.

C: And they went on with their service career getting themselves promoted that was important. The Army people went back to civilian life and found it hard to settle in.

I: Uh-huh

C: So, it was the Forgotten War. 

I: That’s a excellent point sir.

00:52:00

C: So, our experience, we were after Incheon, we were waiting to see whether we would go on to North Korea. 

I: No, no, no. Let’s talk about Incheon landing. 

C: Yes.

I: So, September 15th, 1950.

C: Yes.

I: MacArthur landed in Incheon. 

C: Yes.

I: I mean UN forces landed in Incheon. Don’t talk about MacArthur. What did you? What did your ship do?

C: Our ship was the British carrier

00:52:30

C: Was HMS Triumph and we were escorting it. Triumph and the destroyers, the Canadian destroyers.

I: No, not the Triumph but the other one.

C: Theseus

I: Oh, no, no, British one is Triumph and Australian one was

C: The Sydney

I: Sydney, yes, yes. 

C: Sydney hadn’t come up by then yet.

I: Right 

C: So, there were a number

00:53:00

C: Of aircraft carriers, American and British. They were flying sorties in support of the landing operations but there was always a threat. We didn’t know whether there were submarines in the area. And so, we had to provide an escort. Also, the other threat of course was mines because the

I: Were there many mines?

C: Yes.

I: Oh.

C: And we always had to be on the lookout for mines because

00:53:30

C: The North Koreans were releasing the mines into the rivers

I: Right.

C: Or dropping them from sampans against all the Geneva Conventions where a mine has to be tethered. So, in some of the operations we’d see a mine and we’d have to sink it by rifle fire.

I: Mm.

C: So, there was a threat but for Incheon there was a possible air threat. So, we had cruisers and destroyers. Two of the cruisers, same class as us.

00:54:00

C: Were actually in the landing bombardment force. We were standing by in case one of them got in trouble. So, we were escorting the carrier.

I: I see. 

C: Uh.

I: So, that was very important mission.

C: It was.

I: Yup.

C: And then we were hovering waiting for General MacArthur to decide whether he would go north or not. And 

00:54:30

C: We carried out an operation on the east coast up to a place called Chongjin

I: Chongjin, yeah.

C: Near the Russian border.

I: Yes.

C: We 

I: Wow, you went up to Chongjin.

C: Yeah.

I: Huh.

C: So, we bombarded there and we were the destroyers and then the light cruisers were in shore, close in.

00:55:00

C: The heavy cruisers and the U.S.S. Missouri were further out and firing over the top of us. This is where it was important for naval gunfire, naval maritime superiority, we were destroying the railway lines and that was used for supporting the forces further south. So, we were closing off tunnels, destroying the, chasing trains into tunnels.

I: Uh-huh. So you were still gunnery

00:55:30

I: Anti-craft

C: Yeah. I was. No, by then I was another gun, a M3 pom-pom which is

I: So you actually fired the weapons?

C: No I didn’t.

I: No you are the

C: The local gun direction officer

I: Right, and tell, share that kind of experience with the young children that will listen to your interview

00:56:00

I: What was it like when you on bomb? So many bombing for North Korean territory in Chongjin. What was it like to be inside of the ship?

C: Well,we were on the upper deck. But it was noisy and sometimes when the gun, it was right when I was an M3 pom-pom would fire on a forward bearing and we’d be here and we’d be looking down at the barrel of the gun.

00:56:30

C: It would be very noisy. And this is why I can’t hear people these days. [Laughs]

I: [Laughs]

C: I have great problem.

I: How long does the actual canon reach?

C: Oh.

I: What is the range of the actual gunnery?

C: 12 miles.

I: 12 miles?

C: Yes. 

I: Were you able to see North Korean soil from there, no?

C: We could see, yes we could.

I: You could.

C: Yes.

I: Mm.

C: But for some of issues, we had to have an aircraft spotter and there was a distinction

00:57:00

C: Between the way we did it and the way the Americans did it. 

I: Tell me the difference.

C: Well the difference was that the Americans would fire for an area.

I: Yeah.

C: We would fire for a particular target.

I: Oh.

C: So, I can remember one shoot we did. We were firing and we were trying to destroy a bridge

00:57:30

C: And the American spotter said ‘Wow, that’s it, we’ve got it’

I: [Laughs]

C: And the Captain said ‘Is the bridge still there?’

I: [Laughs]

C: ‘Yes sir, but we got the targe’

I: [Laughs]

C: [Laughs]

I: Bridge is still there? [says while laughing]

C: Yeah, so we were more precise in calling the fall of the shot.

I: Wow, impressive. 

C: Now, so

I: And you were able to see when you were bombing them, right?

C: Well, not

00:58:00

C: We were a long way out to see

I: Right.

C: We could see the shore, but we, and the people in the director, with their big binoculars. But our focus was on the possibility of an air attack.

I: Got it. 

C: And so this continued. We felt, we got close to the Yalu River, or the Army did

I: So you went back to the West Sea again?

00:58:30

C: We, well no. We were

I: No that’s the Tumen River, it’s the Tumen River. Yalu River is in the west

C: The west

I: Ok.

C: But we came back to Sasebo

I: Sasebo, yes, to replenish

C: Right, to replenish and the forces were approaching the Yalu River. They said the war is over. So, the British Fleet went back to Hong Kong.

I: Mmhm

C: Our ship, you’ll recall, has come from Sri Lanka

00:59:00

I: Yeah.

C: And that’s where our families were.

I: Yeah.

C: So, there was no point in our going back. And the Australian destroyers stayed up there and we all went to Japan through the Inland Sea of Japan to Kure, which was the Australian base. It was interesting going through the Shimonoseki Strait because there were high power lines

I: Yup.

C: Going from Honshu to Kyushu.

I: Yup.

00:59:30

C: The captain said to the navigator ‘How high are those’

I; The lines

C: ‘lines. How how is our mark? Are we going to fit underneath there?’ We didn’t know So we steered at them. We came to the turn, we put the helm over hard so the ship would lean over and get.

I: Lower.

C: And later on, one of the British carriers did carry away the power lines 

 

01:00:00

 

C: So, The power lines in Shimonoseki Strait were quite a feature.

 

I: [Laughs]

 

C: We went off to,  the war was over. We went to Kure in Japan, did a refit, and while we were there, the captain was receiving reports from the battlefield, and they were identifying people in different uniforms amongst the enemy, 

 

I: Uh-huh.

 

C: The casualties. China had come into the war, and so 

 

01:00:30

 

C: People were being withdrawn on the west — east coast, they were withdrawn to Hungnam.

 

I: Yup.

 

C: On the east, on the west coast, they were withdrawn to Chin-nampo. 

 

I: Mmhm.

 

C: So we were, our captain was encouraged by the American admiral to go to Chin-nampo with two Australian destroyers, three Canadian destroyers, 

 

01:01:00

 

C: And an American destroyer.

 

I: Chin-Nam-Po

 

C: Yeah, Chin-nampo, 

 

I: Yup.

 

C: To evacuate people from Chin-nampo And um —

 

I: When was it? That is kind of December 19th?

 

C: This was October.

 

I: October?

 

C: October.

 

I: Oh.

 

C: October 1950.

 

I: Yeah.

 

C: And our captain was pretty gung-ho, and he wanted to go up the river, but by that time, one of the Canadian destroyers 

 

01:01:30

 

C: Had gone aground and an Australian destroyer had gone aground. The charts were very imprecise, out of date, and our captain was prevailed upon not to go up. Of course, if a light cruiser had gone up and got stuck on a mud bank, it would have been disastrous.

 

I: Yup

 

C: So, we stayed, our captain was in charge of the operation, but he delegated control of the operation — in actually — in [Chin-nampo] we were at the mouth of the Taedong River, 

 

01:02:00

 

C: And then by then, there were only two Canadian destroyers up there, one Australian, and the American destroyer, and they bombarded the port of Chin-nampo, and the refugees and evacuating forces came down. And by that time, the British had reassembled their force from Hong Kong, 

 

01:02:30

 

C: And they were coming up to regain the battlefield. We went from there to Incheon, and we’d been at sea a long time. And Christmas was approaching, so we got a, we knew the Chinese would not respect Christmas, and we thought there was a risk that they would attack on Christmas day.

 

01:03:00

 

C: So the American command, the United Nations command said we must have a barrage of artillery right across the Korean peninsula, and on the west coast, where there were islands, they put ships to plug the gap. So, we had, we were plugged into one of them gaps with the Australian destroyers, and our sailors went ashore on one of the island to get some greenery, and they found an orphanage. A woman with

 

01:03:30

 

C: About twenty Korean orphans.

 

I: Mmm.

 

C: In a terrible condition because winter had set in by then.

 

I: Yup.

 

C: And it was the coldest winter ever. So, the orphanage was in a terrible state; they had no water, no food, no power, so our sailors went ashore, cut wood, mended their watering system, and we sent out an appeal.

 

01:04:00

 

C: We gave them food, and the sailors surrendered presents they had for their families to give presents to the children,

 

I: Wow.

 

C: And I still tell the story of our contribution to Korean Christmas.

 

I: So that was in Incheon?

 

C: It was off Incheon, Chak-to, I think.

 

I: Chakto?

 

C: Yes.

 

I: So, it was in the islands, small islands?

 

C: Yes, a small island, yes.

 

I: Wow!

 

01:04:30

 

I: This is the right time for you to show me. You said you have a journal.

 

C: Yes, yes.

 

I: What is it? When did you write it? And what is about it?

 

C: It’s, we had to report the work we did.

 

I: So that was your part of duty to 

 

C: Yes.

 

I: Keep the documents, right, journal?

 

C: Yes, [Reading from Journal] so here we have the 7th of December 1950, leaving the convoy, didn’t know

 

01:05:00

 

C: Where, it’s a long patrol off Che-peki point to prevent landings from junks further down the coast. Theseus being made further, Theseus when we met in the a foreman reported that some of the junks are loaded with refugees. So, we just reported our experience in the war.

 

I: Did you write about the orphanage? 

 

01:05:30

 

I: Can you find that?

 

C: Uh, no.

 

I: No?

 

C: That was well . . .

 

I: December 1950.

 

C: Yes, it was [Reading from Journal] Christmas passed quietly. We closed up to an action station as it was Christmas Day, as it was reported that a general attack was imminent. Salon moved up into an advanced bombardment berth beyond Wolmido.

 

I: Any other main mission, major mission 

 

01:06:00

 

I: That you still remember that you did with the British ship, what is it Ceylon? What is it HMS Ceylon?

 

C: Yeah, then the communist attack went on, 

 

I: Mmhm.

 

C: And Seoul was evacuated, 

 

I: Yeah.

 

C: And Incheon was evacuated, and the Americans had lots of stores, and they were destroying their stores. Exploding ammunition, and they sent out landing craft 

 

01:06:30

 

C: full of food, so we had, the British ships didn’t feed as well as the American did, so we had a great supplies of food coming from the American stores on shore in Incheon. And then as the front line moved south, we were behind the line firing at the advancing communists, and our ship was the last ship

 

01:07:00

 

C: to leave Incheon as the frontline moved south. But then we came back some weeks later with USS Missouri

 

I: Mm.

 

C: To retake Incheon. And so it was a very brief occupation the communists had of Seoul and Incheon before we moved north again. In March, the ship left 

 

01:07:30

 

C: Korean waters, we went to Singapore.

 

I: When?

 

C: In March 1950.

 

I: ’51?

 

C: Yeah, ’51, ’51, 

 

I: Yeah. Yeah.

 

C: And I left the ship in Singapore and went to a naval air station for experience there before getting a troop ship back to England to continue my training with the Royal Navy 

 

I: Hmm.

 

C: For another year before getting back to Australia. So that was 

 

I: When did you begin to

 

01:08:00

 

I: Write that journal?

 

C: Oh we did it 

 

I: First day?

 

C: Every day.

 

I: No, no. What was the first day in your journal that you began?

 

C: Ah.[Reading from Journal] 12th of May 1950.

 

01:08:30

 

I: 12th

 

C: Of May,

 

I: May

 

C: 1950

 

I: And when did you end it?

 

C: [Reading from Journal] 16th of April 1951.

 

01:09:00

 

I: Ian, that’s a very important record to share. Okay, we all die, and sooner or later, nobody will know about this.

 

C: Well, I’ve extracted bits of this, and I have our ship’s report of proceedings, and I wrote letters home to my family, and my mother kept all the letters, so I 

 

I: Do you still have the letters?

 

C: Yes.

 

I: Wow!

 

C: And I have extracted from there, from the captain’s reports

 

01:09:30

 

C: From the official history, and the letters I wrote to my mother.

 

I: You still have those letters?

 

C: I still have those letters, and I have my family record, my personal record; some of this I’ve expanded upon.

 

I: Ian, I want to propose to scan all of it and share that with us.

 

C: Yeah.

 

I: We don’t want to have those in physical format, but we want to…

 

01:10:00

 

I: We want you to scan it.

 

C: Yup.

 

I: You know digital scanning, so we can publish it under your interview, unless you have something that you don’t want to share, like

 

C: No, it used to be 

 

I: Secret?

 

C: Used to be,

 

I: But now not

 

C: But now all clear  

 

I: So, could you do that?

 

C: Yes, by all means.

 

I: You can commission FedEx or any office to make a professional 

 

01:10:30

 

I: Scanning without destroying your book, 

 

C: Right.

 

I: Somehow, and then if you are willing to share your letters also will be a very good material for children too. So I know some of the contents might not be proper 

 

C: Oh, no, there’s more — as an eighteen-year-old midshipman, I was more interested in the cricket or the football that was being played [Laughs].

 

I: That’s another good story to tell, you know war

 

01:11:00

 

I: Even during the war, the Canadians had an ice hockey game in [Imjin] River.

 

C: Did they?

 

Interviewer: Yeah, I can show you the picture. Actually, the Canadian, what is it? The Canadian curriculum book, 

 

C: Yes.

 

I: The cover has that image.

 

C: Princess Patricia’s Light Infantry.

 

Interviewer: Yeah, they did ice hockey, 

 

C: [Laughs]

 

I: In Imjin River, and they still do it, they call it Imjin classic, so you think about it,

 

01:11:30

 

I: And if you are still willing to share your letters, then we can scan it, you can scan it and give us the copy.

 

C: What is a better record? 

 

I: Yeah.

 

C: I have extracted it. I have in a book, which I’m writing my family history, 

 

I: Mmhm.

 

C: And I have extracted and consolidated, and that is a better record,

 

I: Sure.

 

C: Bbut it is not original text.

 

I: We love original text. 

 

01:12:00

 

[Katherine Crawford joins interview]

 

Interviewer: So, please introduce yourself. What is your name?

 

Katherine: I am Katherine Crawford. 

 

I: Mmm.

 

K: I was born in Melbourne, and I have traveled quite a lot, including to Korea about five times 

 

I & C: Really.

 

K Four times — five times.

 

I: Tell me about it. When did you go first time to Korea?

 

K: We went just as the Monument in Canberra had been dedicated and…

 

01:12:30

 

C: But remember, before that, 

 

K: No, no it was before that.

 

C: Yes, before we even started building it, remember we stayed with the Australian army attaché.

 

K: We went over before it was finished.

 

C: To see what we were commemorating.

 

K: For me to understand, and for you to see how Korea had developed,

 

I: Mmhm

 

K: And we found it absolutely mind-boggling when we went down to

 

01:13:00

 

K: It’s changed its name now, 

 

C: Busan,

 

K: Busan, 

 

I: Busan

 

K: And we couldn’t believe that the country that had been at war seemed not too long much earlier.

 

I: When was first time that you were in Busan? 19–

 

K: It was about 1970’s –  1980s, late 1980s.

 

I: 1991.

 

K: We started off 1991, 

 

01:13:30

 

K: But I thought we went later.

 

I: Later, right?

 

K: Later, yes.

 

I: When did you know your husband? When did you marry?

 

K: We married in America in Washington, D.C. 

 

I: Wow.

 

K: In 1963. In fact, next month we will have our sixtieth wedding anniversary.

 

I: Wow, so you didn’t know him when he was in Korea?

 

K: No, 

 

I: No.

 

K: I was still at school.

 

I: Ok.

 

01:14:00

 

I: And did you know anything about the Korean War before you met your husband?

 

K: No, I didn’t, and in fact, I took lots of phone calls during the building, 

 

I: Mmhm.

 

K: And prior to a few little ceremonies, such as laying the foundation stone. And it was because he knew a lot of the Koreans would have died before it was finished,

 

I: Mmhm.

 

K: He wanted to give them an opportunity to come and see the work in progress, and frequently, I answered the phones.

 

01:14:30

 

K: I remember one woman in particular say she had lost her husband and also her brother in the Korean War, and she said we had no idea where they were going off to a country we’d never heard of, and she said we are so happy now we’re going to have a focus for our grief. That was very touching.

 

I: Tell me about your personal story. You and your husband told me that you worked 

 

01:15:00

 

I: In the education department in Canberra. 

 

K: Yes.

 

I: Tell me, what did you do?

 

K: Lots of different things, lots of clerical things that I think policy development was my latest job there. It was interesting but it had its moments.

 

I: What is your background to encourage to have a Korean War Memorial in Canberra?

 

01:15:30

 

I: What made you propose and encourage your husband to do those things?

 

K: Because I had seen the other monuments there, and I got tired of the Koreans saying we are the Forgotten War, and we don’t have a memorial, and I think that was it, that really was, and I think to a certain extent it still is the Forgotten War in Australia, certainly not in Korea.

 

01:16:00

 

K: And what I’ve told you, I think what I’d like to tell you most of all is how great debt to the Korean government and the Korean people for the way they’ve looked after our veterans, that we never cease to be amazed at their generosity and their friendship. Even during the crisis with the pandemic, they sent masks to us. 

 

I: Yup

 

01:16:30

 

K: They kept sending us masks for pretty well the three years. That was a wonderful, wonderful thing to do.

 

I: That was done by the Ministry of Patriots and Veterans Affairs, 

 

C: Yes.

 

I: And the guy who think about that is my junior.

 

K: Oh.

 

I: I know him very well. I’m going to meet with him; I am going to meet with the Vice Minister of M.P.V.A., and the guy I just mentioned he is now spokesperson for M.P.V.A.

 

01:17:00

 

K: Well, please tell him how grateful we were and how useful they were to us.

 

C: We are always very humbled the way the Korean people and the government have recognized Australia, and recognition is so important for people, is important for morale during the war, and it’s important for the peace of mind when they retire. And the revisit program, you’ve heard of that, 

 

01:17:30

 

C: That is so important.

 

I: So, I am going to recommend Ron, and who’s that? I met him, Johnny Rhynham, he is one of the Korean War veterans. I just had an interview at my hotel and I’m going to put their names to encourage the Counsel General Lee to put their names in the list of revisit program.

 

01:18:00

 

C: Yeah, I’m glad about that because I often fear that so many people are not aware of the revisit program, and I know that M.P.V.A. would want people to have the opportunity.

 

I: New people, those who never been to Korea

 

C: Exactly.

 

I: After they left.

 

C: So important.

 

I: But Katherine, I am sorry you were about to say something, right?

 

K: I was going to tell another instance where we were very humbled. Flying out of Korea.

 

01:18:30

 

K: On one of our visits, we were sitting next to a fellow and he got talking to us, and he knew Ian was a veteran been to Korea during the war. He must have been dealing with pens and pencils, but he immediately got out his pencils and bowed and gave us these lovely pencils to take with us, 

 

I: Mmhm

 

K: And it’s just lovely acts of kindness like that —

 

C: Spontaneous.

 

01:19:00

 

I: Do you know why they are so thankful, because they were extremely poor, completely devastated, destroyed, but now because tenth largest economy in the world. It’s much smaller than Australia, they don’t have a drop of oil, they don’t have natural resources, but now they are making vehicles, semiconductor computer chips, big ships, 

 

01:19:30

 

I: You know. That’s why they are so thankful for the opportunity to rebuild their nation.

 

C: And they’re an example of what we could get on and do better in this country.

 

K: But they’re all very intelligent, too. They come out here and they make sure their children go to the best schools that they attend, and they work very hard, so I’m not surprised.

 

I: It’s all about education in Korea, education, education, and education.

 

01:20:00

 

I: So that’s exactly right. So, Katherine, please explain to young children in Australia and other countries why we need to learn the history and lessons of the Korean War.

 

K: Oh, I think it’s important that we learn as much history from whatever country that, but particularly Korea in Australia, because so many of our men went over there and helped.

 

01:20:30 

 

K: And the Koreans have such an interesting culture. A difficult language, that they should learn as much as they could, and visit, and study the geography, the history, and the other social effects.

 

I: And that’s why we are making it, so that some of the students will listen to you, and I briefly explain 

 

01:21:00

 

I: About the Simpson Prize, Simpson was the General, World War One hero of Australia and national government, and the history teachers association, teacher association has run this program called the Simpson Prize. They choose sixteen students from all different provinces, and they are bringing them to Canberra, and they have a final contest about the World War One, and they write an essay, 

 

01:21:30

 

I: And so on, and then they finally choose eight students, and they give these eight students to experience another country. And when I was in Canberra for Australia’s history teachers’ association annual meeting, one of those people who running that program came to me and said, “Why don’t we run a Korea prize?” So, we are going to do it, and I propose that why don’t we do it with the New Zealand, Canada, and Great Britain, 

 

01:22:00

 

I: And the United States. So, it’s going to be a Commonwealth and U.S. program for Korean prize.

 

K: Well, I’d say to all those children, work hard, study hard, and travel. Because you only know a country if you go to it, and it’s good when you do go that you do know its history. You know its customs, so work hard.

 

I: Very good point, they need to go see other country, and that’s why this program Korea prize will offer that opportunity.

 

01:22:30

 

C: And those countries that you mentioned share a revisit to Korea.

 

I: Absolutely.

 

C: At the same time of the year in April?

 

I: Yes.

 

K: Did he tell you that one of our grandsons went to Korea?

 

I: No.

 

K: He went on the program for the grandchildren of veterans.

 

I: I know that program.

 

K: Did you started it?

 

I: No, I didn’t start it, but I know the program.

 

K: Well, he came back just so full of everything he had learned

 

01:23:00

 

K: About the Koreans, and it was such a surprise to him.

 

I: Did he like it?

 

K: Oh, he loved it.

 

C: He saw things in the Korean War Memorial we couldn’t find, [Laughs]

 

K:: The most exciting thing was he found a video of his grandfather; it was such an eye opener for him to be at an Asian country, and meeting different people, and eating different foods, and learning so much about the things around him.

 

01:23:30

 

I: Excellent, that’s why it is very important

 

K: Oh, absolutely.

 

I: To educate the history.

 

K: So, I congratulate you and encourage you to keep on visiting the different countries.

 

I: Thank you.

 

K: We all learn. We all learn.

 

I: Katherine, this house is beautiful, surrounded with the art, and I can tell that everything has been cared for by you.

 

[Katherine leaves]

 

I: What is the Korean War legacy to you…personally?

 

01:24:00

 

C: Personally, because we were brought up in a tradition in Australia of fathers, uncles, and some families’ elder brothers having been to the First World War, and the Second World War,

 

I: Yup.

 

C: There’s a tradition of military services in support of our country’s wellbeing. And I am very proud that I can 

 

01:24:30

 

C: Share that participation, I feel it’s part of being an Australian.

 

I: Korean War Legacy?

 

c: Yes.

 

I: Yes . . . What is personally Korea to you now? You didn’t know anything about Korea; now what is Korea to you personally?

 

C: For me it’s an entrée to East Asia to understanding the East Asian people. And I say — people say

 

01:25:00

 

C: We’re British, we look to America, we should forget all those, and just look to Asia. For me, we have to be capable of all those things, we have to be capable of looking to Europe for certain traditions, we look to Asia because they’re so close and so important to our understanding them, and they understanding us, and looking to America for its power. 

 

01:25:30

 

C: But we also have to realize that people in the South Pacific, the islands, look to us. So, Korea links is important to how we have to be capable of looking everywhere for the well-being of our country, of our national strategy.

 

I: Any other episode, or anything you wanted to share with this interview? I think you have a lot of stories to tell me. 

 

01:26:00

 

I: Please think about it, what is it?

 

C: The one thing that we were capable of doing, we were very remote at times, we were very threatened when China came into the war, 

 

I: Mmhm

 

C: And…we…felt very lonely. We felt threatened by that malevolent 

 

01:26:30

 

C: Colossus of China. 

 

I: Mmhm.

 

C: So, we had to make our own fun. Our own interests, so we used to depend on our people reading stories to the sailors. We used to listen to Radio Australia, and they used to give us news reports, so keeping people informed, keeping people in touch,

 

01:27:00

 

C: Is so important. And it’s important for morale that we don’t feel neglected or forgotten, and there was always that threat. So, it’s being recognized, and when we were going through this loneliness period, when China came into the war, our forces were being withdrawn. There was a great threat. Winter was setting in; morale was absolutely rock bottom.

 

01:27:30

 

C: The story came through that we’d been seen on television, and we were going to get a medal we’d been recognized. So, the story that always stuck with me, even from the age of being a nineteen-year-old midshipman, and has stuck with me ever since, is the importance of recognition, for morale during the war and for the peace of mind in our old age.

 

01:28:00

 

C: That’s the one I keep on telling people, recognize people.

 

Interviewer: Got it.  Is there any message to the Korean people? Talking to the camera lens and talking to them.

 

Ian: Talking to the Korean people? We enjoy your company. We enjoy your gratitude. Not everyone thanks the veterans 

 

01:28:30

 

C: To the extent the Korean people do. It is not just the Ministry of Patriots and Veterans Affairs and the Korean government; it’s the Korean people. When we say to people I was in the Korean War, oh, the immediate thing is, thank you for what you did. And the French are like that from the First World War, but the Koreans give a great effect to it, to us

 

01:29:00

 

C: In the Korean War, and we enjoyed that recognition.

 

I: It has to be a reciprocal; you fought for them, and now they thank you.

 

C: Yeah, and it is for us in Australia to understand what happened in 1950-53 

 

I: Yes.

 

C: And the impact it had on the Korean people.

 

01:29:30

 

C: And I encourage greater understanding between the two countries, which can be achieved in our national — we achieve it in the Australian War Memorial, but that is just the war experience. We have to understand your culture, we can do more there, both countries could do more.

 

I: I will sign the M.O.U. with the president of Australia’s History Teachers’ Association,

 

01:30:00

 

I: Katherine Baron, on production of Australian curriculum book about the Korean War, its Australia’s participation in the Korean War and its legacy. When I do that, I will share that M.O.U. with you.

 

C:: Thank you.

 

Interviewer: And when I do Korean prize program for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Great Britain, and the United States, I’ll share that with you too.

 

01:30:30

 

C: Those three countries worked together, and we commemorate together.

 

I Yup. So, it is my great honour and pleasure to meet you and to know of your service and especially the, what is it, the journal that you kept, which is precious, so you have to share that with us, ok?

 

C:: Yes.

 

I: Please do that, and I will follow up with you about the many different things we are going to do together.

 

01:31:00

 

C: And you should have a copy of this, the Korean Consul General, and the ANZAC memorial of Sydney, of Hyde Park. Have you been there?

 

I: Yeah.

 

C:: They produced this [shows booklet].

 

I: I see it.

 

C: Have you seen this?

 

I: No.

 

C:: That’s for you.

 

I: Thank you.

 

01:31:30

 

I: All right, so, I know you have so much more to tell me and us about your service, but always interview has to end, and this is the time. Again, thank you for your fight for the Korean people, and still you are working for the legacy, which includes the Korean War Memorial. The beautiful one that I actually was very impressed in the ANZAC parade street, there in the war memorial.

 

01:32:00

 

C: Let me say this, there’s still work to be done. We want to include in that memorial some of the horticulture one sees in Busan at the United Asian Memorial Cemetery. So that families who may not ever get to Korea can see the beauty and generosity of the Korean people in maintain —

 

I: What do you need? You need flowers and 

 

01:32:30

 

C:: We need to be able — to get the trees to act as bookends as you do in Busan, by each grave there is a rose bush and  buxus corian.

 

I: Absolutely.

 

C: We want to inject the horticulture of Busan.

 

I: But you have to clarify with your own government because they are very strict about the foreign plants.

 

01:33:00

 

C: Yes, they are. 

 

I: Yup.

 

C: They resisted it for a long time. But now they’ve accepted it.

 

I: Oh, they’ve accepted it?

 

C: Yeah, they’ve accepted it.

 

I: Ok, Then send me an email about it, and I will forward it to the M.P.V.A., okay?

 

C: Alright.

 

I: Thank you, Ian, and thank you, Katherine.

 

K: It’s a pleasure. 

 

[End of Interview]