Keith Gunn

Keith Gunn: My name is Keith Gunn. Spelt K E I T H G U N N. Keith Gunn.

Interviewer: What is your birth date?

K: The 21st of February, 1934.

I: 34. Where were you born?

K: In Middlesborough, England.

I: Middlesborough?

K: Middlesborough, yes.

I: M I D D L E

K: M I double D, L E S B R O U G H.

00:00:30

I: Is it around Durham around here?

K: Yorkshire.

I: Yorkshire.

K: (Laughs) The biggest and the best county.

I: Tell me about your family background when you were growing up and siblings.

K: Ah, I was the youngest of five brothers. Uh, my father died when I was just sixteen days old, so.

I: Oh.

00:01:00

K: My mother had a fairly hard life in the thirties. Um, but I was fortunate. I had a reasonable education. We had the 11+ at that time, which I didn’t pass but there was a system if you passed kind of half-way passed, then there was this central school, not grammar but not the ordinary secondary school.

I: Um.

00:01:30

K: So I went to this Hubel school, left school and did an apprenticeship as a plumber.

I: When did you finish your school?

K: At 15.

I: 19?

K: 1949, yep.

I: And what did you do?

K: Then I worked as an apprentice plumber with a domestic plumbing firm.

I: Plumbing?

K: Yes, and at eighteen I went into the army.

00:02:00

I: When?

K: 1952.

I: 52? Were you conscripted?

K: Well I would have been conscripted but then when I went for the medical there was these big posters with “Sign on for three years for 49 shillings a week”.

I: 49 shillings a week.

K: Yes, of course National Service was only 28 shillings per week. So, I thought that looks like a good deal so I signed on for three years.

00:02:30

I: How much was for National Service?

K: Er, 28 shillings, £1 and 8 shillings. Now, one pound and forty pence. Now, then I went to Halifax for our training, which was the Duke of Wellingtons base depot. And then from there to York for further training, um.

00:03:00

I: What sort of training did you receive and for how long was it?

K: Initially there was the basic training for six weeks, uh, which was basic, telling you how to march, salute, do basic rifle drills.

I: Um.

K: Ah and then to York for ten weeks continuation training which was rather more involved.

00:03:30

I: Like what?

K: Um, well, doing more marching, map reading, orientation, military exercises on a small scale.

I: Before you going into, one shilling, what was the worth of one shilling at the time? What were you able to buy with one shilling?

00:04:00

K: Well one shilling you could get, you could get twenty cigarettes for one shilling. A loaf of bread was about, I think at that time about 4 pence. You could get three loaves for a shilling, Um, a drink, a pint of beer would be just over a shilling one and two pence.

00:04:30

I: So, one shilling was pretty OK?

K: Oh yes, it was not bad.

I: So 49 shillings was pretty good for you to live.

K: Oh 49 shillings was good, in fact, because I was on 49 shillings. I allotted 7 shillings a week to my mother at home. Which was a help to her and which still left me 42 shillings a week which was good money in those days. 1952, it was I think?

00:05:00

I: What, what was the other benefits, other than you know the salary that you got from. Even though it was not big but still helpful. Were there any other benefits for you to be able to go abroad?

00:05:30

K: Initially one first benefit, if you went in as National Service you were simply put into whatever unit they had vacancies that required filling. If you signed on as a regular, then you were able to nominate the units you wanted to join. The other thing about it that I did not discover until I had actually been serving was that the road

00:06:00

K: To promotion was much easier for a regular than a National Service.

I: So, after basic training what did you do? Where did you go and what did you do and what was your unit at the time and what was your specialty?

K: Ah, I didn’t have a specialty at that time, uh, it was just general infantry training, um, for 10 weeks,

00:06:30

K: And then we were given leave before going overseas. Because I wasn’t 19, you had to be, at that time you had to be 19 to serve in Korea.

I: Um.

K: I was still eighteen. So in November.

I: Is it nineteen to go to war or in foreign country?

K: I think it’s different now.

I: No, no, at that time?

00:07:00

K: At that time, it was 19 to go to war.

I: To go to war?

K: Yes.

I: OK.

K: Yeah, active service, was, you had to be 19, Um.

I: So, what did you do?

K: So, I went at the first stage, I went on troop ship from Southampton to Hong Kong.

I: Ah. Yup.

K: And, I stayed in Hong Kong for three months.

I: Um.

00:07:30

K: And then the next stage.

I: When was it?

K: Uh.

I: When did you leave for Hong Kong?

K: In November, 1952.

I: Yeah.

K: And arrived in December.

I: Yeah.

K: And then stayed there for three months.

I: Yeah.

K: And then went on to Japan to do, err, we went to a place called Kure,

00:08:00

K: And then from there we went on to a place called Matsu for actual battle training. Which was a month’s intensive training, preparatory to going to Korea. And at that time, they asked for volunteers for a signals course, and although the golden rule in the army was never volunteer for anything. Because I was enjoying life in Japan, I volunteered for this signalers course.

00:08:30

K: I had just finished that, that signals course as the Battle of the Hook occurred which involved the Duke of Wellington’s on the 28th and 29th May, 1953. Um, so immediately all spare people. Because of the number of casualties.

00:09:00

K: I think it was, 22 officers and other ranks killed, ah, and about 80 injured, um, so because of the losses, they required everybody that was spare to go up there. So, I went over on the 30th May, 1953, and once I had arrived at the battalion they had been pulled back.

I: Where did you arrive in Korea?

K: Sorry?

I: Where did you?

K: Where? In Pusan.

00:09:30

I: Pusan. And, did you learn anything about Korea during your school?

K: No.

I: Did you know anything about Korea?

K: No, I didn’t know anything about it, it was, totally alien to me. I haven’t been back to Korea but of course one sees it on the television from time to time.

I: Uh huh

00:10:00

K: When you see the difference now and the progress that has been made.

I: How do you know, what do you know of the progress that Korea has made?

K: Only with the television and the things you see.

I: What do you know?

K: When you look at, in fact I now have a Korean car, a KIA, um, which was more by chance than design.

00:10:30

K: But again, and with televisions, cars, they are on a par, I think, with Japan for technology. And so, when you look back, you always look back at war and you say, was it worth it?

I: Was it worth it?

K: You know,

I: Yeah.

K: so if you look at Korea?

I: What do you think?

K: If you look at Korea now, even with the present situation with North Korea which is on a very,

00:11:00

K: touchy basis, even then you have to say, with the progress that has been made in Korea, and South Korea. You’ve got to say “Yes”, it was worth it. Um, so, and of course I think, well there is one theory, err, with this battle that the Duke of Wellingtons were in, the Battle of the Hook, on 28th and 29th May, both sides really put everything into it,

00:11:30

K: But nothing was gained. The Chinese of course wanted to gain an advantage, they didn’t, they were held back. And the theory is because both sides realised they weren’t getting anywhere. It was time to sign the truce in July. Whether that is a lie or not I don’t know. but it is one theory.

I: So, the country you never knew before, if you did not even though where it was located.

00:12:00

K: Oh, no, no.

I: And, now you landed in Pusan.

K: Pusan.

I: Just pretend that you are landed just now.

K: Yeah.

I: Do you still remember, what was the image, what was the feeling that you saw in Korea? And what did you think about Korea? Be honest, because we are going to use this interview, your interview, for our school children.

K: Well, the thing is. Especially at that age, a young age.

00:12:30

K: You compare anywhere with your own country. And of course, arriving in Korea, and seeing the state of the roads and the housing, everything really, it was very poor. To us, uh, without being offensive, I’d say shoddy when compared with England. But when you look at the television pictures now,

00:13:00

K: With the progress being made in a relatively short time. Its sixty years since the thing, but, sixty years is not a long time on the basis of progress made by the country itself. So yes it was, I would say, it was worth it the loss of life, the problems, difficulties.

00:13:30

K: Arriving as it is now with South Korea today. Yes, it was worth it.

I: Very, very much.

K: I think so, yeah, indeed.

I: Now, the Korea is the eleventh largest economy in the world and you have your own KIA auto vehicle right?

K: Yeah.

I: Automobile, and, UK and Korea is very close to each other.

00:14:00

I: In 1983, UK signed a treaty with Korea and after that there was no relationship at all. Until you come to Korea and fought for the country that you never knew before. And that country become now the eleventh largest economy in the world. When did you leave Korea?

K: I left in uh, November 1953.

I: Oh, and when you left Korea in November,

00:14:30

I: Had you imagined that Korea would become like this today?

K: Oh no, no, you couldn’t. I mean, at that time it was in such a poor state, and of course then I knew nothing at all about Korea. If you think back to it being occupied by the Japanese, and the difficulties it has had, you can understand the reasons why it was in such a poor state, and the fact that it has done so well now, is a tribute to the Korean people themselves.

00:15:00

I: And, what was your unit at the time?

K: The Duke of Wellingtons.

I: Ah, Duke of Wellingtons?

K: Duke of Wellingtons, uh hum.

I: So, you were not DLI?

K: Oh, no, no. I was in the finest infantry regiment in the British Army.

I: (Laughs). You proud of that?

K: Oh yes.

00:15:30

I: OK.

K: Yes.

I: And, you are the signal corp right, specialty was signal corp?

K: Signal platoon.

I: Signal platoon?

K: Yeah.

I: But basically the signal corp, right? What did you do?

K: Um.

I: Where were you actually, were you in Pusan or did you move to other camp?

K: Um, from Pusan, we moved up by train, forward, I would imagine it was Seoul we went to. And from there in trucks were joined up with the battalion.

00:16:00

I: Your depot, where were you?

K: Um, I can’t remember.

I: What was the name of the camp?

K: I can’t remember the name of the camp.

I: Was it North?

K: Oh, it was North, North of Seoul, yes.

I: Seoul. And you were adjacent to or very close to enemy line?

K: Um, initially no, and then because there had been after this battle they were pulled back into reserve. But then a few days later they went back up

00:16:30

K: A little into the front line.

I: Were you near to Hill 355? Little Gibralter?

K: I don’t know, I can’t remember what it was. Because I was, then positioned in the headquarters company. In the section that dealt with charging batteries. And

00.17.00

K: I remember then, each day in the evening, driving tanks around with a load of these batteries to each company headquarters.

I: What was the use of batteries for?

K: It was for, lighting, and for the the radio sets. They were very large radio sets, 62 sets.

I: I see.

K: Yeah.

I: What was your salary, were you still being paid 49 shillings a week?

00:17:30

I: Or what happened after that?

K: Um, I think I was still on 49 shillings at that time.

I: Same? No combat pay? No foreign service pay or anything else?

K: No, no. We didn’t, the English didn’t get extra money. (Laughs).

I: So what did you do with that money?

K: Um?

I: Was it actual money or was it script?

K: Uh it was, in Korea I think we got script.

00:18:00

I: Script, right?

K: Yes, there the only thing you spent it on really was the NAAFI, which was the NAAFI truck which came around and every so often, for cigarettes, sweets, and things.

I: You had to buy those with your money, right?

K: Oh yes.

I: So did you smoke?

K: Oh yes.

I: Did you drink?

K: I did.

I: Uh ha.

00:18:30

K: But not, I didn’t drink a lot. I never could drink a lot of beer.

I: Um.

K: Um, I used to smoke, um, and I smoked right until 16 years ago, 17 years now when I stopped for health reasons.

I: And, how was life there, where did you sleep, what did you eat and how was the life there?

00:19:00

K: You lived in small, um, we used to call the hoochies.

I: Hoochies.

K: Ah, which were really made up of sand-bags and any bits.

I: Like a bunker?

K: Yup.

I: Can you say it’s a bunker like?

K: Um.

I: Hooch, hooch you say you lived in hooch. Is it like a bunker?

K: Yep. That kind of thing.

I: Yep.

K: I don’t know where they got the name hooch,

00:19:30

K: Whether that was a Korean term?

I: It is Japanese.

K: Japanese, yup.

I: And what did you eat and how often were you able to take a shower?

K: Uh, showers not very often. We used to go down to this bath unit. If you were lucky you went down once a week.

I: Once a week?

K: Uh, it’s strange how now I almost take

00:20:00

K: For granted that I will shower every day.

I: Every day, um.

K: Um, but again even at home then, you would bath perhaps once a week, twice a week, not daily.

I: Yeah.

K: But um, food. Occasionally had what we call these ration packs. Which were tins

00:20:30

K: And food and things. In the headquarters itself you had cooked meals.

I: Uh huh, so you had a hot meal?

K: Oh yes.

I: Good. You were lucky.

K: Oh, I was, and because as I say I went to, in this, headquarters company which was like the rear echelon.

I: Right.

K: Rather than the company which were front line

00:21:00

K: And more dangerous positions you would say.

I: Um, what was the most difficult thing during your service there in Korea? What was the most difficult thing? What did bother you most? Were there any dangerous moments that you might have lost your life or anything?

K: Not, not for me there wasn’t. I mean possibly, and that,

00:21:30

K: It wasn’t really dangerous but I suppose the most dangerous was when I went around on this, in this jeep taking batteries round to the different company headquarters.

I: Why was it dangerous to do that? I mean you driving jeep around.

K: I wasn’t driving, I had a driver that drove.

I: Yeah.

K: But I suppose because some areas you were exposed.

00:22:00

K: To the enemy sight. But I wouldn’t say it was particularly dangerous, not compared with the people actually on the front line.

I: Yep. Any episode that you remember, whether it’s interesting or dangerous or was meaningful?

K: No there wasn’t.

I: Anything that you remember?

K: No I had a really quiet time, really. This is why,

00:22:30

K: I feel a bit of a fraud coming here.

I: No, no. Not at all. You were there as a British Korean War veteran, you did your service, you did your duty.

K: I was just fortunate that I went at the right time.

I: Yes.

K: Perhaps that was God looking after me and keeping me alive.

I: Are you Christian?

K: I am, yes.

I: Are you Christian or Catholic?

K: Catholic, Christian Catholic. Yeah.

I: And did you pray?

00:23:00

K: Ah, yes, yes, um, I think one does when, when there is an element of danger or problems. It’s time when we pray more which is I suppose wrong really but its human nature.

I: So,

00:23:30

I: What did you do after you left Korea? Did you continue to serve in the Duke of Wellingtons or?

K: Yes, we were going to Gibraltar.

I: Gibraltar.

K: And my three years was up there. But I was enjoying life so much I signed on to do another nine years. And was very happy and moved up in rank to Sergeant.

00:24:00

K: Which was a comfortable rank to be. You had more comfortable accommodation, better food and everything. But then unfortunately I got married and uh, so I left the army as I said I would.

I: Uh huh. And um.

K: But it was eight years which I enjoyed very much.

I: Uh huh. So were there any

00:24:30

I: Good impacts of your military service upon your private life as a citizen.

K: Um, oh I think military service is certainly at that time is a good thing. It taught you self-discipline, a respect for others, and things that were good.

I: And you said that you’d never been back to Korea right?

00:25:00

K: No.

I: No. Do you want to go back? If Korean government invites you back?

K: Um, I don’t think so now, I’ve got certain underlying conditions health wise that prevent me doing a lot of things.

I: Hmm

K: I am on my third aortic aneurysm, which they can’t fix because it’s in a bad position.

00:25:30

K: I’ve got this persistent aortic defibrillation, various other things. So, yes, travelling long distance is out now.

I: I see. When you can back from the Korean War did people know about your service? Generally?

K: In general no, it was thing that, particularly the more vibrant Korean War veterans gone on for years said

00:26:00

K: It was a forgotten war. I don’t the thing was quite forgotten as ignored and never considered. Even today when anniversaries occur and they talk about the Falklands War and Iraq War, Korean War never gets a mention or rarely gets a mention.

I: Why is that? Why?

K: I don’t know.

00:26:30

I: Is that because Korea used to be too little?

K: I don’t know. It’s totally wrong because that was the first major United Nations effort and one would think that that would have captured people’s imagination but for some reason no.

I: And think about something good that came out of the Korean War. You told me you just shared your story and your feeling that Korea was so poor.

00:27:00

I: Completely destroyed and now is eleventh largest economy in the world and one of the closest countries the UK have right now. Why don’t we talk about this, why is it not mentioned? When there is occasions.

K: I don’t have an answer to that.

I: Isn’t this ridiculous?

K: Oh, it is.

I: It is right. Do you know how much that

00:27:30

I: The UK World History textbook talks about the Korean War. Do you know?

K: I don’t know, no.

I: As long as I know there is not much mentioned about the Korean War.

K: No, this is another thing, I think,in general where now because of this political correctness. People

00:28:00

K: Only teaching what they want to teach rather than teaching what exactly happened.

I: I think that’s a wonderful point, that we need to talk about. You know the so-called political correctness ruins everything.

K: Oh it does indeed, and you come across examples of it every day, um.

00:28:30

I: I mean think about the wars that UK has involved after WWII, Falklands, what else?

K: Iraq.

I: Iraq.

K: Afghanistan.

I: Afghanistan, what else?

K: Syria.

I: What else?

K: Err, Libya.

I: Libya.

K: This is one of the problems, with UK.

00:29:00

K: Particularly in the last twenty years. The way they have interfered in the Middle East.

I: Yeah.

K: Um, and the foolishness, I mean, Blair did it with lies. Cameron even went across to Libya and glorifying it. Libya now of course is a hot bed of unrest and problems in every respect, lawlessness,

00:29:30

K: Terrorist activity. It’s just ridiculous, so silly. Well you cannot understand politicians because at the time when they got involved in Libya, I worked in Libya for four years, and at the time we got involved in Libya I thought why haven’t the experts given them advice.

00:30:00

K: And told them to leave it alone? Partly they did, and Cameron just ignored his experts and bowled in anyway. This is a problem that politicians.

I: Think about a war that US, I mean UK has involved in after WW2. You name those and can you think of any war that has come up with such a successful outcome as South Korea.

00:30:30

I: You talk about.

K: There isn’t.

I: There is nothing right?

K: Nowhere.

I: Nowhere right?

K: All of them are still in dire straits, Afghanistan, we are sending troops back again now to Afghanistan.

I: And still messy, right.

K: Oh yeah. But, and this is the trouble that politicians will never learn. You or I, if we do something, and it turns out badly, we think leave that alone.

00:31:00

K: Politicians, no, they will go back, and back, and back. Afghanistan failure, Syria well.

I: We don’t know where it’s going right?

K: Exactly.

I: Now you have to team up with the President Trump.

K: Well.

I: Which is a joke to me!

K: Well, he is another one.

00:31:30

K: He talks the talk, but can he walk the walk. That’s the thing and we have the same position in Britain with Theresa May as Prime Minister. She talks the talk, but can she walk the walk? That remains to be seen, I don’t think she can actually. It’s the same as this present situation we have over this Brexit, I think it will not happen.

I: Uh huh, so to me, it is very, I mean in some sense it is even ridiculous

00:32:00

I: That we don’t teach about the Korean War which has produced beautiful outcome like the South Korea.

K: Uh, indeed, I agree.

I: So, it’s a miracle out of the ashes. You know?

K: Yes. Like a phoenix arising from the ashes.

I: Yes. And you don’t teach about this.

K: No.

I: So that’s why we are doing this.

K: That’s, that’s a good thing.

I: And the point you just made in all this, its going to be edited and we are going to talk about this in the classroom of the United States.

00:32:30

I: I’m already, my foundation annually invites hundred and hundred teachers to the conference. We offer everything for free. Everything free and teach about the Korean War using this interview. And they go back to their own classroom, and they are going to use this interview to attract the attention from the students about the Korean War.

K: Good.

I: I will want to do the same thing for UK.

00:33:00

K: Yeah.

I: So we can educate our own History teacher about the Korean War and tell them about the good stories, right, you just shared with me. That’s why I am here and my foundation wants to do. Does it make sense to you?

K: Yeah, good luck with that.

I: Yeah.

K: Yeah.

I: I think this is the kind of thing the History education will need to provide to our future generations.

00:33:30

I: No? That is why we are doing this. Any other story you want to share with me?

K: No, I think not.

I: I want to thank you for your sharing.

K: Oh, you are very welcome.

I: Of your story, of your service and we are going to do our best to educate future generations about the Korean War and its legacy which you wonderfully explained

00:34:00
I: In your own terms and in your own experience. So, I want to thank you for your fight for the Korean nation, because you fought for us. We were given the opportunity to rebuild our nation and now I think it is one of the most successful that came out of all the war history in the 20th century of human society.

K: I would agree, yeah.

I: Great, Keith, very nice meeting you. It is my great pleasure and honour to meet you.

K: Thank you.

00:34:30

I: Thank you, bye.