Edward Rowny

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Edward Rowny: : My name is Edward Rowny. Spell it R O W N Y.

Interviewer: N Y and what is your first name?

E: Edward.

I: Edward. What is your birthday?

E: My birthday is April 3, 1917.

I: 17?

E: Yes.

I: So, how old are you now?

E: I’m 99 and a half years old.

I: My goodness. So you are going to be 100 years old next April!

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E: That’s if I live that long

I: Your face does not tell that at all.

E: I see.

I: How do you keep up with your health?

E: Well, DNA. [Laughter]

I: Do you exercise?

E: Yes I exercise with dumb-bells and I take four walks every day.

I: Wow, that’s amazing, I want you to keep up with that.

E: Yeah.

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I: Regularly, I used to ask questions about the personal background.  But since you are a very special case. So, I would like to ask this question: 99 years old and you are a big part of the Korean peninsula, I mean the Korean War. Looking back all those years.. what do you think about the Korean War and why you were there and what did you do? Tell me briefly about it. I mean looking back all those years.

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I: I mean looking back all those years.

E: Well, I was assigned to work with General McCarther in the fall of 1949, and I immediately  got put on his planning staff. I could see the war was coming. So I warned him to pull all the troops back out of various cities and provinces

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E: Of this was then in Japan. So, we pull all those back. We were very fortunate because on June the 15th of 1950, the North Koreans invaded the South. And I happened to be the duty officer that day and took the first news to General MacArthur who immediately began planning to try to throw back the North Koreans

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E: And to protect the South Korean peninsula.

I: What was your rank at the time that when you began to work with General MacArthur?

E: I was then a Lieutenant Colonel

I: Lieutenant Colonel

E Yes.

I: What was your duty?

E: My duty was planner. One of the three planners of his team. And I was one of the three planners of the famous Incheon invasion. He decided to

00:03:00

E: Make a very bold move to invade way up the west coast, not far from Seoul. Which was very difficult because of the 21ft tide and it was very difficult to have an amphibious landing, where there is a high tide. So, this was a magnificent success. Therefore,

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E: We were happy about that.

I: You  just told me that you were actually seeing that the war was coming, right in 1949. What was the sign that you could tell me that the war was coming?

E: The signs were mostly by reading the cable traffic that we were intercepting. That North Koreans were sending to each other,

00:04:00

E: Back and forth, to Russia and China. So, there were many hints, only hints. But I thought that we all should get ready anyway, especially since putting the troops and all the ammo and all the talent in Japan was a waste of our time and money and effort. Since the General decided to

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E: Occupy Japan.

I: Uh-huh

E: Not through the use of U.S. troops but to have his orders given to the Emperor and the Emperor would then give orders to his people to keep law and order. So we were able to move the troops back into training and begin to train them for the war which came not much later.

I: So you telling me there were some sufficient

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I: Intelligence that the North Korea were preparing the war?

E: Well, to say there were very slight indications,  hints only. Not a very popular opinion because most people thought there was not a war coming. But I wasn’t sure, but I said that they wouldn’t be making all this preparations

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E: Making all this traffic on the radio and calling one another if there wasn’t something coming. So I said, besides we have nothing to lose by bringing the troops back home out of the villages and towns. Putting them into units and getting them trained to go into combat – if they needed. If they didn’t, why nothing loss. Why, certainly they were needed.

I: Were you aware of the difference,

00:06:00

I: The policy difference between state department and defense department about the Korean peninsula? Because the US forces withdrew from Korean in 1949.

E: Yes, there was a general feeling in the state department that there was no big danger in this part of the world and matter of fact

 

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E: Dean Acheson, the secretary of state, made a famous error, a blunder, by saying that Korea was beyond the sphere of influence of the Americans and outside their real interests. And this encouraged the North Koreans to plan more.

I: It was Jan. 12th, 1950,

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I: That Acheson, Dean Acheson,

E: Yeah.

I: Declared that the U.S. defensive perimeter would not include Korea.

E: Yeah.

I: Did you hear that, right?

E: Yeah, I heard that.

I: What did you think about it?

E: It was quite a blunder for the sake that we should not say such a thing. It was later recognized as quite a blunder which encouraged the North Koreans to move forward.

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I: Did you work together with General Almond and Willoughby and other generals?

E: Well I was brought to Korea, first to Japan and then to Korea by General Almond because he had been my division commander all through World War II. Then he became General Allmond’s Chief of Staff. After the Incheon invasion, General Almond wanted me to be on his staff.

00:08:00

E: For the 10th corp and wanted me to be his engineer. And General MacArthur actually asked me to be his corp engineer and build to bridge across the Han river. I said I couldn’t be the corp engineer because the Corp Engineer had to have the rank of a regular General. And I was only a Lieutenant Colonel and this was two steps higher – First Colonel and then General. General McArthur said no problem,

 

E: Took out his pencil and paper and said effective immediately, General Rowny is appointed a Brigadier General for a tentative, brevete,  Brigadier General for the job of being a Corp Engineer.

I: Just like that?

E: Just like that.

I: So you promoted two steps. Oh my goodness.

E: Yeah, I know.

00:09:00

E: It was unusual and very challenging because I had five full Colonels working for me. I was only a Lieutenant Colonel, my actual rank, and two of the Colonels had been my bosses before. So, it was a very difficult situation trying to transition but it worked out in the end.

I: How would you characterize the relationship between you and General MacArthur?

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I: How do you remember him?

E: Well, I remember General MacArthur very favorably because he certainly understood the mentality of people in South East Asia very well. He had studied them throughout the years, of course. His father had been a high commissioner in the Philippines and then MacArthur was a high commissioner of the Philippines, himself.  And, he knew a lot about the Philippines, Japan, and Korea.

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E: So, we were fortunate to having someone in a high position who understand the Japanese very well.

I: And Incheon Landing was brilliant, brilliant operation that is recorded in the American history

E: Yes, yes it was.

I: Of U.S. involvement.

E: It was originally quite opposed by the joint chief of staff. Not only because of high tide but because we didn’t have enough troops. So ,what General Almond did

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E: Was go to his classmate from Virginia Military Institute (VMI)

I: Uh huh.

E: Who was then the head marine in the pacific. And say, “look, if you can bring in a division of reservist from World War II,  we’ll have enough troops to have this invasion”. So, this was done, and it was very fortunate because it saved the Marine Corps. Very few people knew

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E: What General MacArthur and General Almond knew, and that was that General, President Truman had signed an order to the Department of Defense, a month earlier, saying that we should do away with the Marine Corps. That there was no more need for Marine Corps, it was unnecessary. That there would be no further need for amphibious landings. Well, of course after this amphibious landing was a huge success, it saved the Marine Corps.

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E: Popular opinion was so strong that they, he had to keep the Marine Corps intact.

I: So did General MacArthur report back to President Truman about the specific planning of Incheon Landing? Did He?

E: Yes. And of course Truman wanted to hear what the Joint Chiefs of Staff had to say about it – and the Joint Chief of Staff were originally against it.

00:12:00

E: But General MacArthur invited them all to come over to Tokyo. Where he briefed them and convinced them that it was well worth the risk and the stakes would be very high and they gave him approval to make the Incheon invasion.

I: So, you were at that spot.

E: I was at that spot, at that time, yes. Very dramatic.

I: You were there with General MacArthur on the ship, naval ship when Incheon landing

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I: Was beginning. Right?

E: Yes, I was.

I: Tell me about those, please. You know give it. Your interview will be listened by the young students here, ok. The foundation, the Korean War Legacy Foundation making digital history textbook about the Korean War and your interview will be the highlights of it. Tell me about the day, the time, that moment that you were with General MacArthur looking over Incheon.

E: Well, We were looking over

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E: The Incheon. We were actually quite nervous because General MacArthur said all those people that planned the invasion should go in on the first wave. He said this would sharpen their minds conversely and brighten their attention to a higher pitch. And that was very true. Fortunately, we did not have to land in the first wave. When I did go on in the second wave.

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E: Right behind the first wave of marines and army troops. Which scaled a wall,there was  a big wall, a 31 foot wall, around the port of Incheon.  By putting together aluminum ladders and bolting them together in 10 ft sections, the soldiers were able to go up the ladders

 

00:14:00

E: And go into the invasion. Now. of course it was very dangerous. Climbing this ladder with the North Koreans shooting down on them. But they got enough people to do that and were very successful at making a landing, without too many casualties. The counter foot-hold, I saw that before the first and second landing, With the tides

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E: Once the ships let the troops out, the troops were stranded there as the tide went out. Sitting on the bottom until the tide came back 12  hours later to take the ships out. And then, load em up and bring them back for a second landing 24 hours later.  So, I went in on the second wave.

I: So, what was

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I: The personal reaction of General MacArthur when he saw that landing was successful?

E: Ohl, of course he was very happy to see that.

I: What did he say? Tell me all those details –  personal details.

E: Well, he said that he was very proud of the Marines and the US Army soldiers, and the great bravery they showed, and the skill they had to make this invasion.

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E: Which he thought was going to be a success, but he didn’t think it would be that great of a success. Ah, he

I: So, even he was surprised!

E: Oh yes, he was surprised that it went so rapidly as it did. On the third wave, General Almond came in to see the troops and I came with him. Well, actually I was there already, with the second wave. And we visited the troops

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E: Which had captured the port of Incheon. General MacArthur  wanted the trips to move forward, across the Han, and this was all before North Korean blew the bridge across the Han. And the troop leaders said no, we can’t do that because their doctrine – we don’t move forward until all the artillery is ashore and ready to support us on land.

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E: General Almond said, well I am a great believer in doctrine but there are time when we should make an exception. But their planner said we can’t do that. So General Almond called the division commander of the Marines, who was still out on the ship, and said I want you to order these troops to move forward. And he repeated the same thing that it was against the doctrine. And he said well I think there is a time when doctrine should be put aside.

 

00:17:00

E: We have to go before the North Koreans blow the bridge and then it will be much harder to cross the river. So, General Smith said no. But General Almond said well I order you to order your Colonels to go in. Of course, the colonels were very happy to go, the Marine Corps Colonels believed they should move forward and were happy to  move forward.

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E: Which they did. A couple of days and we were on the banks of the Han River.

I: I’m going to ask you more details about this whole thing but I want you to give us the overall framework of your experience in the Korean War. And, my next question is about Korea and Asia You were in Japan in 1949, right?

E: Yes.

I: And did you know anything about Korea at the time?

E: Oh, I knew a little,

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E: I didn’t know as much as I had hoped or wished I had known. I didn’t know nearly as much as General MacArthur who had studied the whole South-East Asia. I think correctly.  I was disappointed that the United States did not supply the South Koreans with the goods, trainers,

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E: And did not give them good tanks. And the North Koreans were given good trainers and were bing helped a lot by Russia. Not only with trainers but with modern tanks, so I was very happy that General MacArthur overruled his intelligence officer, General Willoughby, who said no, there’s not going to be any real invasion of Japan.

00:19:00

E: But, I mean of Korea. But, I was very happy that General McArthur overruled him. Now, this did not make me very popular with General Willoughby but fortunately this came about. So, it was a very exciting time and I was right there in the middle of it.

I: So, did General Willoughby report to MacArthur

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I: That there is no sign of any attack before the war broke out?

E: No.. he didn’t say there was no sign but he said that this is  just ordinary traffic that goes back and forth and that there’s not imminent. So, he convinced the army commander, the 7th Army commander, of the same thing. So, General Walker, the 7th Army commander, and General Willoughby

00:20:00

E: Were together on this and opposed by General Almond, who thought otherwise and so did  General MacArthur. Even if there would not be an invasion, there was no harm in getting the troops trained and ready to go. Which was of course a very wise decision.

I: Have you been back to Korea after the war?

E: Oh yes, many times.

I: How many times?

E: Many..

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E: Oh, many times. 6, 7, 8.

I: 6,7,8

 

E: Yeah.

I: And so

E: Of course, I commanded the troops again. I went back a generation later and I commanded the first corp along the DMZ, the militarized zone. 120,000 troops and I formed the first combined US-Korea corp. Up to that time

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E: We had 6 US divisions and 2 Korean divisions. I’m sorry, the other way around. 6 Korean divisions and 2 US divisions. And we took out 1 US division and had 7 Korean and 1 US. I put them together into one organized, integrated corp, with my deputy being a Korean commander.

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E: Jong-hwan Lee, a famous Lieutenant Jong-hwan Lee. Also an integrated staff. And we worked together as a team living and fighting together all through the war.

I: So you are in a unique position to be able to compare the Korea in 1950, 1953.. and now.

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I: How would you compare it, what happened?

E: Oh it was a tremendous difference, up until that time. Early In 1950, the Korean troops were not very well trained. There wasn’t very much effort put behind them. They had no good tanks, not enough ammunition, no trainers. And over the years.. they got to be a very fine group of highly trained

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E: Soldiers. Especially since along the way they formed the Korean Military Academy and sent young promising officers to military academy who graduated on the West Point example. And became very famous leaders later. When I was there Korean and then of course up until this day all these

00:23:00

E: West Point graduates, from the Korean military, I mean Korean graduates from their West Point made all the difference in the world.

I: Right. So you made a point about this advance and improvement in the Korean military. But at the same time, I want you to tell the audience and young American students and  young generatiosn about the Korea in 1950.

 

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I: The economy, the things you saw completed disinvested and the Korea that you saw now in the 21th century.

E: Well.

I: How drastically different?

E: It’s hard to underestimate the great difference. In 1950, they were very poor, very untrained and just very mince-meat

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E: For the North Koreans to chew them up quickly. Over the years, with the training of their officers, even sending a lot of officers to the United States.

I: I want to talk about, I want you to talk about Korea economy in 1950. How poor that was and how people behaved at the time. What was the scene that you saw in the war?

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E: Well, in 1950 the economy was very poor. People lived on the equivalent of less than about $2 a day.

I: Wow.

E: Of course it’s changed dramatically over the years. But, and the suffering was very great. I remember when the North Koreans came. The South Koreans from Seoul and other places north of the Han river

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E: Picked up whatever they thought they could carry on their heads in the way of bedding and pots and pans and so-forth, and were moving south. And freezing along the way and starving.And  It was a very,very miserable site. I still remember how I saw people just die of starvation along the road. Die of cold weather and disease

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E: And inability to get food and medicines. So, it was a very poor situation. Very hard to really describe how very poor and heart-wrenching it was to see these poor families dying along the way and struggling to get to safety in the South.

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I: What were you thinking when you saw those things?

E: I just thought, just what a miserable way to treat human beings and they were treated worse than any cattle round-up. When the North Koreans came down instead of giving them any help or trying to help them go south, they shot them and killed them. Even unarmed civilians

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E: were being shot and put into mass graves. And when anybody was seen starving or sick along the road, the North Koreans shot them and killed them. And it was a very unbelievably cruel set of conditions.

I: So, you went back to Korea after that, right? When was the last time that you were able to

00:27:00

I: See what Korea was at the time?

E: Well, I went back in 1970 to command the first iROK corp. I had moved up the ranks and became, by that time, Lieutenant General. And say I commanded the seven Korean divisions and one US division, all

00:27:30

E: Put into one US  ROK corp along the demilitarized zone. So, I was able to command the troops. It was very dramatic to see the matter of discipline that the US soldiers had over the US soldiers in Vietnam. And the great discipline and the better trained soldiers in Korea over the ones that were in Vietnam.

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E: And the soldiers in Vietnam were just like the soldiers were in Korea in the1950.’s  Had been under trained and not very well supported. So, It was history repeating itself all over again.

I: How about Korean economy in 1970 and the Korean society, overall? Compared to that of Korea in 1950. What was the difference?

E: Oh it was a great difference. I would say

00:28:30

E: That it increased at least ten times. And the Korean president, a very smart, General Park, was very smart.  He took his best army officers, generals. And when they retired, he sent them to the United States to train in the U.S. schools and in the U.S. think-tanks.

00:29:00

E: To learn capitalism and how to invest and what to do. And they went back and established businesses. like making steel, and aluminum, and putting things together. So it was the beginning of the modern economy, which is today so strong. That makes Korea one of the strongest nations

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E: Among the top 10 richest nations in the world. So, at a great dramatic change. When they are using their brain power instead of their, just their human labor-power. Instead of  having just poor farms and rice farms, and what not. They imported their rice! But used their brain power to begin

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E: Their industry, which later blossomed out into making all the TV sets that were sold in America. Many of them are built in Korea and also radios, and other equipment. Particularly in the tele-communications field. So, it dramatically changed. So by 19, 21st century it was

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E: A hundred times better than the economy, hundred times better, than it was in 1950. And at least ten times better than it is today in North Korea.

I: So, what do you think about this, when you were there in Korea when the Korean war ended in 1953, right?

E: Yeah.

I: So when you left Korea, did you have

 

00:31:00

I: Any thought about the future of Korea that would develop like this today? Be honest.

 

E: No, I had no idea that the Koreans could be this smart. So smart and so industrious and would get a whole handle on a lot of the industry of the world. And was competing with the United States.

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E: To make better tvs, better automobiles, and better radios, and better telephones. First cellphones being built in Korea. More cellphones in Korea than there were in the United States. And it was just a miracle, really. I would say, I called it the economic miracle of the world when the Koreans moved from such a poor state, to such a

00:32:00

Edward Rowny: Rich modern state.

I: What do you think about this? What is the legacy of the Korean War and the Korean War veterans, like you and so many millions Americans US and UN forces? What is the legacy? What do you think about this whole transformation?

E: Well I think this transformation was absolutely remarkable. Far beyond what I thought they could ever accomplish

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E: And also at the same time, I have a little fear that the present-day generation in Korea doesn’t realize the great dangers that are there with North Korea and what North Korea could do to their economy. Since they have so many troops that are building nuclear weapons. I just will hope that the present students,

0:33:00

E: In your audience, is paying attention to what is going on and will keep their power drive, keep their soldiers trained, invest well in defenses so that there cannot be a repeat of the invasion of 1950. If it did it would be absolutely tragic. Even though the United States has nuclear weapons that could destroy North Korean, the North Koreans could destroy 100,000

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E: Troops in Seoul, people in Seoul, very easily with their first artillery rounds. And even if they didn’t use a nuclear weapons, could be very devastating. So, I think the legacy on the one hand is very great. On the other hand, I have some apprehension today that the Korean people are very patriotic and are keeping their

0:34:00

E: Forces up. I’m just worried that as time goes on the younger generation who has been born and raised in luxury will have no idea how poor their grandfathers were. How they all suffered and died in such cruel death. So, I just hope they keep training and keep their strength up.

 

0:34:30

I: General, you made an excellent point about the two side of the legacy of the Korean War and Korean War Veterans. One thing that I want to ask you about at this juncture is why we don’t teach about this much in our history textbooks and in our curriculum? I mean, do you know that we have only about a paragraph on the Korean War in our history textbooks?

E: Well it’s kind of natural that

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E: Younger generations don’t know and don’t hear much about and then some of them don’t want to hear about how things were in the past and they don’t in my opinion don’t pay enough attention to what could happen. It’s the same thing in the United States, the textbooks carry very little. Korea was known as the unknown war.

0:35:30

I: Mmm-hmm

E: But, I was very happy when I wrote my book about my experiences in Korea. That the president of Korea had the book translated and put in all the libraries for the grade schools and universities throughout Korea. I was very happy to see that, hoping that it will rub off

0:36:00

E: And I very much applaud your efforts to bring this to the attention of the younger generation. Not to scare them, not to make them despondent, but to make them aware that a little bit of training goes a long way when it comes to protecting your own economy and your own troops. And don’t take too many

0:36:30

E: Chances. Get this training and invest in being prepared for what we hope won’t happen, but it could happen.

I: Could you tell me about your books? Do you remember you came to the teachers and the Korean War Youth Corp Convention in Washington DC in 2015 that my foundation hosted

0:37:00

I: And you played, you blew the harmonica, and you also talk about your experience and then there were lines and lines of people who wants to buy your books and to be signed by you. So, tell me about your books. How many books did you write?

E: Well my book was actually three chapters of my longer book. I wrote about my biography and the Korean War

 

0:37:30

E: And three of those chapters, 15, 16, 17, I quickly made into a book, which was translated into Korean, and this is the book we are talking about. Which I took back and I was very pleased that it got so much coverage and that these books were published by the Korean government. I was also very honored that

0:38:00

E: That President Park and the President of Poland, a descendent of the first President of Korea, presented me with a medal of honor.  I was very proud of that.

I: Mm-hmm

E: And I was very happy to have so much of that attention paid to the Korean War and I hope that with your work with this interview and other

0:38:30

E: Work, you can remind new generations that they should pay more attention in their schooling, the textbooks, to what actually happened

I: Mmm-hmm.

E: And try to do what they can to be sure that it doesn’t happen again.

I: Do you remember the title of your books?

E: Yes, my book was An American Soldier

0:39:00

E: Saga in the Korean War. It was from the time I went to Japan in 1949 until I helped plan the Incheon invasion. I built a bridge across the Han River, which was difficult. I dropped the first bridge from the air into the Chosin Reservoir, so that the marines and the soldiers could escape the south.

0:39:30

E: I was in charge of the evacuation of the US troops and the South Korean soldiers from North Korea and bring them down to the south. And also 100,000

I: Refugees.

E: North Korean refugees, which were packed into the boats and brought south. And then General Almond said

0:40:00

that if I stayed on for a second year in Korea he would give me a regiment, which I very readily did and I was able to command the 38th infantry. So during the fall of 1951, I was the commander of the 38th Infantry and I was very proud of the fact that we took a hill to the flank of heartbreak ridge,

I: Oh.

E: Which I was very proud of because with a great deal of planning

0:40:30

E: And hard work, we put a tremendous barrage of mortar fire and rocket fire on the Chinese. And killed and wounded hundreds and hundreds of North Koreans that had not a single US fatality or really South Korean soldier fatality. We had some wounded. I was very proud of the fact that we could

0:41:00

E: Have this very famous hill taken without suffering a single person taken or killed on the US or Korean side. So I stayed in until

I: What was the name of the hill?

E: It was Hill twelve fifteen.

I: Twelve fifteen. And when was it?

E: It was on September 15th, 1951.

I: September 15th, 51?

E: Yes, it was just about a year after

I: After Incheon Landing.

E: After the Incheon invasion.

0:41:30

E: A suitable remembrance of what we had done a year earlier. So then I stayed for a while until early 1953. Wfter the armistice talks started, I was transferred back to the United States.

I: Yes. Why do you think the Korean War, I mean can you name any war, you are the military expert, you are the military authority, living, surviving, General MacArthur, I think you are the only one.

0:42:00

I: And so let me ask you this question, since World War II, can you name any war that the US has ever involved that produced such a clear outcome like the Korea?

E: No, none since World War II. There was one famous battle where they Polish general took troops up to

0:42:30

E: Defend Warsaw against the attacks of the newly formed Russian government of the Russian Revolution in 1921. As a matter of fact, when General MacArthur was planning the Incheon Invasion he said, “You know this Incheon invasion will go down in history as the 22nd greatest battle of the world. There being twenty-one famous battles before that time,

0:43:00

E: The twenty-first being this one in Poland. So I was very proud to learn that General MacArthur was such a student of history that he place the Incheon Invasion as the 21st, the 22nd greatest battle of the world. So now since World War II

0:43:30

E: There have been two great battles of the world since then. One of course being Normandy and the invasion of Europe.

I: That’s World War II.

E: After World War II and the other great battle of the world being in the Pacific destroying the Japanese in the Pacific theater. So there have been two great battles since that time,

0:44:00

E: So Incheon ranks right up with those great battles of the world, going back to the old times of Abila and other famous battles of antiquity and the history of the Romans and the Persians in the early parts of the first century.

0:44:30

I: You told me, you just tel us that the Korea in 1950 was one of the poorest country in the world. Now we are eleventh largest economy in the world. Such great transformation and that was one of the most important battles in the history of US military history, why is it known as forgotten? Why do we not teach about this and why does it be known as forgotten?

E: Well

0:45:00

E: Because it was not on the US scope, it was not a very important part of the world at the time. We were not so much afraid of the North Korea or, and especially when the Russians and the Chinese split apart, we are more occupied with the things that were happening in Europe,

I: Europe.

E: And more recently,

0:45:30

E: In the Middle East so it’s fallen off the radar scope so I think we have to remind ourselves that there are these very important parts of the world.

I: Yes and especially right now China is challenging US super power. And Korean peninsula is a front line dealing with this challenge from the Chinese. Russia is getting back to trying to get back to the old

0:46:00

I: power and Japan is just about to re-arm their whole country. So, I mean this is one of the most important allies to the United States, the Republic of Korea.

E: Oh absolutely and I think that we realize that.  Matter of fact my good friend General Vessey of the US forces in North Korea and the President

0:46:30

E: Decided to take troops out of North Korea, General Vessey said that is a mistake and that I will resign if you take the troops out. So, the President changed his mind and left the troops in there, fortunately. And they are still in there. Now today of course. It’s a mixed bag because on the one hand the Chinese do not want to see a war and are restraining the Russians and are actually trying to restrain the

0:47:00

E: North Koreans somewhat. Having them hold back. They say they are increasing their economy, they want stability, they don’t want a war. The Russians on the other hand are trying to get back to their former strong position so they are very strong and building up and of course strong as yet the North Koreans, which have absolutely unbelievably

0:47:30

E: Difficult situation with their dictatorship and their form of government. Convincing this poor country that their country is doing well, when in actuality they are very hard against the North Korean people.  So, it’s a very difficult situation to handle.

I: So that’s why my foundation the Korean

0:48:00

I: War Legacy Foundation, we have already more than a thousand interviews of Korean War veterans.

E: Oh that’s very great.

I: Yeah.

E: I hope a lot of that will reach the students, particularly the high school students, the elementary students, the high school students. The new generation so that they remember to keep strong ties with the United States and Japan.

0:48:30

E: Actually I’m not afraid of Japan building up because after World War II they were held to just one percent.

I: Right.

E: Of there gross national product and Japan can be of great use in sending troops to the mid-East and other places. So, I’m not afraid of Japan. I’m afraid that China could always change its mind and of course I’m more afraid of the Russians who with Putin

0:49:00

E: Very adventuresome and moving into the Crimea and having exercises and the Baltic Sea. So, it’s something that I am happy to see as you are paying such great attention. I hope maybe you can remind people that I have this book that

0:49:30

E: They can read about. I would like students of this generation to know what great suffering, great hardships, and great patriotism they was with their parents and great parents and great, great parents and how much they suffered, but they don’t have to suffer the same situation again.

I: Absolutely. I agree with your comments about more dangers coming from and originating from

0:50:00

I: Russia, but Japanese, now prime minister Abe trying to amend the constitutional ban about 1% of the whole thing on the defense military expenditures. So, that’s what, remember Japan invaded China, Korea, all the Asian countries during the war so we are seeing that

E: That’s true but I think

0:50:30

E: That is misguided. I don’t think that the Koreans should be worried about the Japanese, I think see it as the strengthening because Japan and the United States are very strong allies and Japan is very much against China and Russia. So, I don’t think that the Koreans should be worried, they should welcome that Japan is stronger because Japan is very much aligned to the United States.

0:51:00

I: That’s why we are making this interview. Your interview will be one of the most important one and highlighted and my foundation just began to make digital history teaching materials.

E: Oh good.

I: Yeah and so we are going to use these interviews. We have more than one thousand interviews and we have more than eight thousand pictures and public

0:51:30

I: Private documents, letters that they used exchanged with your families while there was a war. So we going to make those as history teaching materials about the Korean War and the modern Korea and tomorrow in Washington DC in museum we are going to present prototype of those digital teaching materials. Among so many thousands of teachers

0:52:00

I: In the presence of National Council for Social Studies.

E: Oh that’s very great, that’s very good.

I: Yeah

E: That’s very good news, I’m glad to see that because I’m very keen on seeing the Korean students learn more about the Korean War as I am as the United States students to learn more about what happened in Korea so I’m very happy to see that. I applaud your efforts very much.

0:52:30

I: And my foundation took ten teachers back to Korea this summer, so they saw with the Korean War Veterans, they saw the DMZ area, they saw the Seoul city, they are fascinated by that. We going to take thirty teachers to next year with the Korean War veterans so that they can teach more about the legacy of the Korean War.

E: That’s great news, that’s great. And I hope that the

0:53:00

E: You make all the teachers aware of my book about the Korean soldier’s saga and the Korean War which gives a lot of this past history.

I: Absolutely. and

E: And let me mention that I am not making any profit off this. Any profits from the book goes back into the Korean Veteran’s Association

0:53:30

E: For wounded veterans. So, it’s not that I’m looking for any profits from I mention that is because I’m interested in Korean people knowing what happened and so I want to mention that this is not a book I’m writing for any personal profit.

I: That’s a noble spirit and I will make sure that your book will be promoted in conference in any events that my foundation is hosting.

E: Very good.

I: I wonder if you can make a trip to Washington DC for just twenty minutes

0:54:00

I: For tomorrow night. Do you think you can do that?

E: No I’m afraid not, my doctor told me that I should not do any more traveling, not even locally. I’m afraid.

I: You look healthy.

E: Well, I don’t want to advertise it too much but I have had some problems so.

I: Alright. I will closely work with David

0:54:30

I: Your good friend and see if we can do things, okay?

E: Now I would like to play a farewell for you.

I: Yes, please.

E: {Plays harmonica}

I: Wow, what is this?

E: That’s the Korean Arirang.

0:55:00

I: Arirang. Do you remember?

E: I remember when I was in Korea in 1950 and 1951 the soldiers, children singing that. I learned and taught that to my children. My children learned to teach it to my grandchildren. We sing it as one of our family bedtime nursery rhymes.

I: General, this is very, one of the very rare occasions where I can do interview

0:55:30

I: And we covered a lot of very important topics, but we haven’t covered your private part of it. Can we do a little bit more?

E: Sure.

I: General, could you tell me where were you born?

E: I was born in Baltimore, Maryland.

I: Baltimore

E: Just only about 75 miles from here.

I: Mm-hmm. And tell me about your family when you were growing up and your parents and your siblings.

E: Well, my father came here from Poland

0:56:00

E: when he was seventeen years old. And that was in 1912. And it was a couple of year before the beginning of World War I. He got to be a carpenter in a shipyard and when World War I broke out in 1916. They were recruiting US troops. He volunteered to go into the US Army, but they said no

0:56:30

E: We need you more as a ship builder. So, he stayed in the ship building. And my mother had actually been born here in the United States of Polish ancestry. But when I was six years old my mother got very ill, when my sibling, my younger brother was born, and she almost died and so I was sent to my grandmother’s to live and

0:57:00

I: I was staying with my grandmother until the time I was sixteen when I went to college. My mother recovered, my father recovered. And my brother who had been put out to live with an aunt came back. They lived together, and I visit them ever weekend from the time I was twelve to sixteen. I went to college and even after I went to college, I had a

0:57:30

I: Scholarship to Johns Hopkins and then in 1936 I was a junior at John’s Hopkins I earned a scholarship to the Jagiellonian Institute in Krakow, Poland where Copernicus had discovered that the sun was the center of the universe and not the earth.

I: That’s amazing right?

E: So, I went to school there and I saw the war coming.

0:58:00

E: So I saw when the war was coming that I should come back and I finished college and went to West Point. Went to university all over again so I could become a regular officer.

I: When was it? When did you answer West Point?

E: 1937.

I: Uh-huh.

E: So, after I had been in Poland for 1936 and of course the Nazis

0:58:30

E: Struck Poland on the first of September 1939 when I was a junior at West Point. I was a junior in 1941, then was one of the first units to go overseas to World War II. Our commanding officer of the unit I joined in the fall of 1941 had a brother in

0:59:00

E: in Japan studying the Japanese language. And he could see the Japanese preparing for war. So, he warned his brother who was Colonel Joseph Wood, we called him Smoky Joe was his nickname. And he trained us very hard. So, at that point Pearl Harbor struck on December 7th of 1941, Smoky Joe sent a telegram

0:59:30

E: The next day to the army saying, this unit was trained and ready to go to war. So we were one of the first units to go overseas. We were sent to Africa in February, March of 1942.

I: What did you study in college before West Point, what was your major?

E: My major was in engineering, civil engineering.

01:00:00

E: Actually, 60 percent of the curriculum at West Point was civil engineering. So, I did most of that over again. So, I had a good time at West Point because I didn’t have to study too hard and I could read a lot about military history which I loved and history of civilizations and literature.

01:00:30

E: And also learn more about the military so that instead of being an untrained officer, which I would have been if I had come in from John’s Hopkins, I was now a regular officer, a trained officer, into World War II. I was very fortunate.

I: Was military your dream or what did you want to become when you were in John’s Hopkins studying civil engineering?

01:01:00

E: Well when I was in John’s Hopkins I wanted to become a civil engineer and become a bridge builder.

I: Mm-hmm

E: But after I saw the war coming and went to West Point.  Of course World War II broke out and I really felt that the military was my career. Also, I saw that a lot more social mobility

01:01:30

E: Easier to get up the ladder in the military than it was in civilian life. In civilian life a lot of jobs in civil engineering, corporation bridge building, went to relatives and friends. I didn’t have any relatives and friends. So it was a lot more democracy if you did well in the military, you got promoted. All you had to do was work hard and

01:02:00

E: You could do it.  So, I felt my chances of a good career were better in the military were better than they were in civilian life.

I: What was your MOS when you graduated West Point? I mean does West Point grad have MOS too, right?

E: They didn’t have an MOS in those days for officers but they had them for enlisted men. We did have a choice for what branch of the military we went into.

01:02:30

E: And since I studied engineering and liked engineering, I chose the engineer corp. And my first unit in World War II was engineering regiment, but then in World War II we ran out of infantry battalion commanders and General Almond, who was a division commander in World War II, moved me from

01:03:00

E: Commanding a regiment of a battalion of engineers to a battalion regiment of infantry. So I became an infantry battalion commander in World War II. Later in Korea I was working for General Almond, again. I was now on engineer again but he wanted infantry officers, so I gave up the engineer corp and became an infantry regimental commander.

I: You keep talking about your dream was to build a bridge. Right?

E: Yes.

01:03:30

I: So your dream came true when you rebuilt the Han River bridge, right?

E: Yes, it became true because I not only was a member of the bridge building, I was the boss. I was in charge of putting that bridge together. Which was no easy job because the Han River was a mile across.

I: Yup.

E: And at that point we want to cross

 

01:04:00

 

E: And also, the very heavy tides coming in from the ocean. So, that we had to put anchors both ways. When the tide came in, the boats went one way, and you had to have an anchor to hold them. When twelve hours later, the tide went the other way, you had to have another anchor the other way to hold the bridges in tack

 

I: Hmm.

 

E: And also the fact that in those days, we had very little bridging. And all the bridging

 

01:04:30

 

E: Available in the Pacific Theater was not enough to go across the Han River.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: So, we had three different types of bridging. And after we landed this bridging in Korea, I had to set up four shops, metal shops on the air field. Kimpo Air Field. To build different fasteners. So we could  fasten three different types of bridging together.

 

01:05:00

 

E: So, it was a very difficult job to do.

 

I: Wow. Do you remember how many bridge there were at the Han River at the time you were building that?

 

E: There were zero.

 

I: Zero?

 

E: There was only one bridge there and the North Koreans blew that up.  After they came south. So that the South Koreans couldn’t move north and [Laughs]

 

01:05:30

 

E: I remember the last time I was in Korea, I counted 27 bridges.

 

I: [laughs] Right.

 

E: Across the Han River. So, I don’t know how many there are today. But, I believe there were 27 bridges. [Laughs]

 

I: What do you think about that? You are the bridge builder. There is only one that you were building in the war. Now you counted with your finger, that there are more than 20 bridges. What do you think about that?

 

01:06:00

 

E: That’s remarkable. It shows just how strong the economy is and of course a lot of, not only the port of Incheon bringing in the supplies, but the large airport there at Incheon brings in a lot of air supplies to Korea. Air supplies, traffic, tourist traffic

 

I: Um-hm.

 

E: Koreans who live here go back to see their

01:06:30

 

E: Relatives and so forth. And trade and tourism is strong in Korea and I hope it stays that way.

 

I: You are the planter of that small seed of building bridge in Korea.

 

E: [Laughs]

 

I: Do you know, are you aware of this biblical metaphor the the mustard seed, one small mustard seed planted it becomes big tree?

 

E: [Laughs] Well no, but nice of you to remind me of that.

 

I: Yeah,

 

01:07:00

 

I: You are the planter of that seed

 

E: [Laughing]

 

I: And it’s now prospering. Thank you so much about what you did

 

E: You’re welcome.

 

I: Let me ask you this question, after the Incheon landing, where did you go?

 

E: Well, after the Incheon landing, I went to Fort Benning, Georgia. I transferred to the infantry.

 

I: Right after the Incheon landing? I’m talking about

 

E: No, I mean after Incheon landing

 

I: Yeah, right after the Incheon landing in September 15th

 

E: After the Incheon landing

 

01:07:30

 

E: I became part of the Tenth Corp, which landed along the east coast.

 

I: Wonsan.

 

E: Wonsan. Then we went North just as on the West side the 1st and 9th Corp of the United States Army. Went up the river and between Japan, between Korea and China.

 

01:08:00

 

E: We went up

 

I: Chosen?

 

E: From Chosen up to the river. Which, between Korea and China on the east side.

 

I: East Side, Tumen River

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: Yeah. Wow, so tell me about this part because the Battle in Jangjin Reservoir in Japanese is a chosen few, okay.

 

01:08:30

 

E: Yes

 

I: Chosin, that was one of the most important battle. But we lost a lot of Marine  there and armies. And tell me, be honest please, and be objective about it. I mean some people say and criticize that MacArthur made a mistake there because the Marine Corp and 10th Corp was in the East side and the 8th Army was in the West so that the Chinese

 

01:09:00

 

I: Out flanked both side of it and that is one of the most important serious mistake that he make. What do you think about that?

 

E: I think, if that’s true. On the other hand you have to look at the situation at the time when, General Walker, the commander of the 8th Army

 

I: Mm-hmm.

 

E: Was not very highly favorable of General MacArthur’s ideas.

 

01:09:30

 

E: And didn’t like Almond. So in a way it was true that some truth to the fact that the two corps should be separate. On the other hand, Almond did push the troops very hard towards the, MacArthur and Almond, particularly Almond  pushed the troops very hard North. And separated them. So,

 

01:10:00

 

E: The fact that General Smith, the Marine Corp Commander, kept his soldiers more together. Kept his Marines, more together, enabled us to put up a defensive perimeter at the Chosen Reservoir. And that’s when I dropped the bridge in.

 

I: You did?

 

E: In parts. Yes.

 

I: You are the one?

 

1. I’m the one that did that. And

 

I: Oh my good. Tell me about it

 

E: Well

I: Because that is one of the most important part of the Jangjin Battle.

 

E: Yeah.

 

01:30:00

 

I: Without that bridge, all the Marines could have been annihilated.

 

E: That’s true, that’s true and so

 

I: Tell me about the detail. How you did it. When was it and how severe the Chinese aggression at the time. And tell me.

 

E: Well.

 

I: This is all, oh my goodness you are the one.

 

E: Yeah

 

I: Were you in charge of that whole project?

 

E: Yes, I was the corp engineer and it was my staff, actually thought of the idea. I had a staff South of Wonsan.

 

01:11:00

 

E: They thought of the idea but the Air Force said no, you can’t drop parts of the bridge out because the load is so great that when you drop out the pilot will lose control of the airplane. So, they finally found one, Lieutenant Colonel, Air Force pilot, who was brave enough to try to drop the bridge out and it was successful

 

01:11:30

 

E: In the rear lines. So, we actually successful in keeping control of the plane. Now it wasn’t successful  in the bridge crashed on landing. So instead of one parachute, we hooked up three parachutes when we actually dropped the parts into the Chosin Reservoir. And bolted them together and pushed them across

 

01:12:00

 

E: The gap, chasm, there across the Chosin reservoir gap. Chinese, actually coming in fighting, shooting at us as we were building the bridge and almost interrupted it. They, the Marines, did take a hill which protected us from enough to build a bridge and

 

01:12:30

 

E: We built a bridge and beat off, held off, the Chinese long enough so we could evacuate all the Marines and the Army soldiers too that were were up there. Back down to the South, down there.

 

I: [Shows a paper map] There are two very important projects during the Jangjin Battle.  Which was at the end of November to early December, and there were two major engineering

 

01:13:00

 

I: Projects and one of them is Treadway Bridge. Around the area of Funchilin Pass, and the other one is airstrip in Hagara-Ri. Without those two amazing engineering project, the more casualties could have been happened. Maybe all the Marines could have been just annihilated from there. Could you talk about

 

01:13:30

 

I: First the air strip you built for Hagara-Ri?

 

E: Yes, this was very important because the weather was so bad  that we had more casualties actually from the trench foot and the frozen feet of the Marines and Army soldiers. Let’s not forget there were Army soldiers there too, but we’re talking mostly about the Marine’s had the greatest force there.

 

01:14:00

 

E: And so, It was a very difficult air strip to build because we needed some more or less a smooth runway. So what we did, we would put charges of dynamite wherever there were hills and rough spots along the runway and then we would run a  bulldozer back and forth.  We built a tent on each end of

 

01:14:30

 

E: The runway we were gonna build and we would run a bulldozer, which was warm, and the bulldozer was warm and the operators were warm. Down the runway after we blew up these spots and smooth out. The problem was the frozen earth was sticking to the hot blades of the

 

01:15:00

E: Bulldozers. So we experimented. All different types of ways, of trying to keep, the earth from sticking to the blades. We tried all different types of oils, and facial oils, lubricants and what not. Finally, one of my officers in my staff said that he thought

 

01:15:30

 

E: That using ski wax would do the trick. So,

 

I: Ski wax?

 

E: Ski wax.

 

I: oh my goodness

 

E: So, we had 200 pounds of ski wax dropped in by air into Hagara-Ri so we could coat the blades with ski wax and that would allow us to move the earth down the runway and smooth it out.

 

01:16:00

 

E: Interesting,and funny for the people, but not for me, was that the newspapers that Rowny should be courtmarshalled. Because he’s using expensive U.S. air drop money for ski wax so that soldiers could go to recreational skiing. They didn’t know I was using the ski wax for the bridges.

 

01:16:30

 

E: So, I say it was funny for the readers but it was not so funny to me. But I didn’t take it funny at all. But the

 

I: How desperate at the time was the situation there without air strip. What could happen? Could you tell me?

 

E: Oh, Very desperate because the Marines were holding out. But they were losing more and more and the Chinese were moving more and more people in .

 

01:17:00

E: To reinforce what they had and It would have been only a matter of time before the Chinese would have captured or killed all the Marines and Army troops in that whole Chosen Reservoir.

 

I: You can drop the map now. You can just drop the map. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Male voice: Thank you very much. I got a nice shot of it.

 

I: What was the unit, of your unit,

 

01:17:30

 

I: At the time you were building the airstrip?

 

E: I was the Corp Engineer of 10th Corp and I had five regiments in a corp, five Engineer Regiments, and had the one regiment of the Marine Division.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: And another regiment from the 7th U.S. Army division.

 

01:18:00

 

E: So, actually I had seven regiments or parts of ‘em. Because a lot were killed and dispersed to use to build the airport and build a bridge across the river. And It helped defend the people who were actually doing the bridge work. ‘Cause actually we had casualties of the people who were putting

 

01:18:30

 

E: The bridge together. As we were putting, even as we were crossing the chasm, we still had people being killed building the bridge across the chasm. So, but fortunately, fortunately it worked.

 

I: What was the official name of your unit? Do you have a number?

 

E: No, I don’t have a number right now. I don’t remember the numbers of the different

 

I: Okay.

 

E: Regiments

 

01:19:00

 

I: Did it happen before that aircraft drop the bridge from the air? Did it happen in military history?

 

E: No, that was the first one. That was the first time they tried. The first time that it worked and very fortunate this Air Force Colonel was courageous enough to show that if we put three parachutes on the bridge parts. Was that

 

01:19:30

 

E: As the parts left the airplane, the pilot could keep control of the airport, airplane. So, it was very fortunate this worked. And that we had a man courageous enough to, to try this.

 

I: You created miracle there.

 

E: Well, thank you, [laughs]

 

I: And your God given talent building bridge, really, really. Been there and you rebuild the Han River bridge.

 

01:20:00

 

I: And then you build airstrip in middle of the Jangjin battle, and then also you put this Treadway bridge from the air.That’s amazing.

 

E: Thank you.

 

I: Have you been recognized by that?

 

1. Well, yeah, it’s part of the citation I got from the Medal of Honor that I got from the Korean government.  On the other hand, the Marines

 

01:20:30

 

E: Are very proud people and they don’t like to hear that someone else had the i. Some marines have written that it was a Marine idea to do this and the Marines built the bridge. Well, of course the Marine soldiers were part of the troops that built the bridge along with my other troops from every corp that I had up in that area at the time.

 

01:21:00

 

E: So, some truth to the fact that they certainly did build the bridge and we couldn’t have built it without them. We couldn’t have built it without them taking a hill on the side of the chasm to protect us while we were building it. But there are people who have given speeches saying that the whole thing was a Korean idea.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: I mean a Marine idea.

 

I: Were you there at Chosin Reservoir?

 

01:21:30

 

E: Oh, I was there. I was right there.

 

I: How cold was it?

 

E: Oh, It was 30 degrees below zero Fahrenheit. It was a cold, cold winter, the winter there was very cold.  You had to have two or three pairs of socks. And two or three pairs of gloves. And had to have a mask on your face against the cold wind that was blowing.

 

01:22:00

 

E: Because ears and noses were frozen off. And a lot of feet were frozen. so.  Like I said, there were more casualties to cold weather than there were to enemy fire.

 

I: What was your rank at the time?

 

E: I was a Brigadier General.

 

I: At the time?

 

E: Yeah. I

 

I: Right

 

E: Because, General MacArthur had made me Corp Engineer to build the Han River bridge.

 

01:22:30

 

E: And I was still. This was only a month or so after the Han River that we went, started going north to the Chinese border.

 

I: This is very important question. According to my research and my reading of the Korean War history, the Chinese began to intervene into Korea in early October and there are many intelligence reports that the Chinese were captured in early October.

 

01:23:00

 

I: But, but let me ask you about this were, was General MacArthu’s  headquarter aware of those?

 

E: Well.

 

I: And were they expecting massive intervention from China? What did they do? Why didn’t they do more appropriate measures to take to deal with this Chinese intervention?

 

E: Well they, the Chinese were coming in slowly

 

01:23:30

 

E: And sort of experimenting at first and looking around. So it was, it was not very, not very great numbers. There were just a few and we reported this. From what we saw from my corp engineer staff.  But General Willoughby, back in Japan, back in Tokyo, no, no, no, those are not Chinese, they are more North Koreans.

 

01: 24:00

 

E: So I invited General Willoughby to come to Seoul, not to Seoul, but Wonsan and we had captured two of these Chinese and I said, “see” they are Chinese. And he said “No, no,  they’re not Chinese, they’re just two more North Koreans. I said “sir I’ve studied anthropology in college and there’s a difference in the fold of the eyes of the North Koreans from the Chinese”.

 

01:24:30

 

1. The epicanthal fold of the eyes of the North Koreans makes them different from the Chinese. Oh, he said, don’t give me that anthropological jazz. He said, ‘They’re not”. So, he refused to believe it. And unfortunately General MacArthur believed Willoughby instead of us. Until the Chinese finally struck and

 

01:25:00

.

E: In great numbers around Thanksgiving time. And in the middle of November, third week of November. And so then we knew the Chinese were coming and General Willoughby had to admit that the Chinese were finally coming.

 

I: Why did General Willoughby reduce this intelligence report? Why did he do that?

 

E: Because he was, was, was stupid. He was not very, very aware of what was happening and

 

01:25:30

 

E: So, he was mistaken and unfortunately, General MacArthur believed him instead of believing us. So, we realized too late that the Chinese were coming in in great power. If we had found out earlier, than in the East the Second Division

 

01:26:00

 

E: Would not have been caught at the Hagaru-ri, where the second division was chewed up and 9/10th of all the division was killed there or wounded, or captured at Hagaru-ri, on the western side. And then of course they, five Chinese divisions surrounded the one marine division,

 

01:26:30

 

E: The marine regiment.  Yeah,, five

 

I: Yes.

 

E: Chinese divisions. There were 15 times as many troops

 

I: Right.

 

E: Surrounding the Marines there at Hagaru-ri.

 

I: So you think that if General MacArthur took the intelligence report about Chinese seriously, we could have prevented this disaster

 

E: Oh, absolutely.

 

I: In Jangjin River.  Right?

 

01:27:00

 

E: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. We could have realized that the Chinese were coming in force and we didn’t have the force. We could have come South of the reservoir without having to fight to get across south. And we could have come back to the, fallback on the western side. The city of Seoul as well. So, we were

 

01:27:30

 

E: Caught by surprise by such large numbers.

 

I: You know, the President Truman was very afraid of Chinese intervention. And making the Korean War at the time into a total war.

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: And so that he keep asking General MacArthur not to go over to the border with China.

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: And MacArthur was resisting those.

 

E: Well.

 

01:28:00

 

I: Were there any kind of political context where the General Willoughby intentionally reduced this political report about Chinese intervention.

 

E: Well, General Willoughby estimate had part of it, but a lot of it was due to the fact that Truman was afraid of getting into World War III.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: And gave orders to the staff,

 

01:28:30

 

E: The staff, the joint chiefs of staff instructions to MacArthur were ambiguous.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: They were afraid of going against MacArthur because he had such a great reputation. So they said, well, we don’t think you should do this, but if you think you should, go ahead. But don’t use U.S. forces, just use

 

I: Korean

 

E: South Korean forces.

 

I: Yeah.

 

01:29:00

 

E: Well, this was impossible. I mean it was inevitable that the US had to stay with it, the Korean forces. And then of course they dithered there and were caught. Now, unfortunately MacArthur was fanning it, this firestorm by saying that we should actually bomb at the border between

 

01:29:30

 

I: Manchuria.

 

E: Manchuria. So even not blameless on this, he blamed civilian staff, as well as Willoughby, and both were mistaken that, parts, pieces of advice.

 

I: What would you do differently if you were the intelligence General at the tim, like Willoughby position.

 

E: Well, I would have,

 

I: What would you do?

 

E: I would have believed the reports from the front that there were Chinese

 

01:30:00

 

E: There and I would have suspected that if there were some Chinese, more could come. So I would be more careful about being strung out so wide and pushing so hard to get, just to get to the border.

 

I: What would you do if you were the MacArthur at the time? What would you do differently about, I mean General MacArthur’s Incheon landing was brilliant. That was the most important successful moment in the Korean War. Changing completely, the whole thing,

 

01:30:30

 

I: Right?

 

E: Yes.

 

I: But, after that, after that I think there was something happen there. MacArthur wanted to go beyond the 38th parallel.

 

E: Right.

 

I: Truman, President Truman didn’t want that to be happening.

 

E: Right.

 

I: But actually he did it and Chinese intervened. You know, and then the Battle of Jangjin Reservoir and the 8th Army was completely destroyed, you know, on that tact and we had to withdraw

 

01:31:00

 

I: On January 4. What would you have done differently if you were in the position of MacArthur?

 

E: Well in the first place, I would not have split the 10th Corp away from the 1st and 9th Corp, without, and made two different commands and put my Chief of staff in part of the 10th Corp in front of them. If General Walker was not loyal to me at the time. If he was loyal, fine.

 

01:31:30

 

E: But, the command should have stayed together. If he’s not loyal he should replace him with General Ridgeway, which he did later on anyway, replace him. So that’s step number one. Step number two, I would have been more alert to what was being reported when they first sighted the Chinese. And believe there was a chance that they were scouting down there. That they may be scouting because

 

01:32:00

 

E: They were looking to bring the troops down. So, I hope that I would have been more alert to what was happening. Certainly, would have believed the story that there were Chinese there after we captured several of them. And could tell from the different folds in their eyes that they were Chinese and not North Koreans. So, that’s part two. And third, I’m not sure that I would have pushed so fast.

 

01:32:30

 

E: Just to get to the Han, Just to get to the,

 

I: Yellow.

 

E: Yellow River. It was just not that important, I don’t think. To prove that you are up there. But, MacArthur was very highly elated after Incheon and the troops would come home by Christmas. And so he was moving without worrying too much about what might be the future.

 

I: Hmm.

 

01:33:00

I: That’s excellent points that you are making. So after the Jangjin River, you went back to Hungnam and you evacuated from there, right?

 

E: Yes, I was put in charge of first blowing up all the port there. So that the Chinese and North Koreans couldn’t use the port and also put in charge of evacuating 600,000 tons of supplies and

 

01:33:30

 

E: Over a 100,000 marines and army troops. At the same time, we were able to squeeze in, I mentioned, 100,000 North Korean refugees and rescue them to come  south. So, actually completed these,the last troops were left to go south on Christmas Eve, 1950. And I was actually the last man on the beach with two soldiers.

 

01:34:00

 

E: My jeep driver and radio operator. The radio was out, the battery had gone dead, and here I was the Chinese moving down. And I was scheduled to go out on the last boat of supplies and troops. And that boat blew up.

 

I: Wow.

 

E: And the commander, General Almond, at sea and Admiral Joy thought that

 

01:34:30

 

E: I had gone down with the boat. So, they went south and left me on the beach.

 

I: [Laughs]

 

E: Fortunately, my radio operator was very smart, and  he saw we had left many, many barrels of powdered milk back because we didn’t have room on the ship. To make room, we made room for the North Korean refugees. So, we built

 

01:35:00

 

E: A big sign on the airstrip near Hungnam. S O S. And an American plane saw that and came and picked us up. And actually we were shot at and hit by the Chinese as we were leaving on Christmas Eve.

 

I: So, you took off by airplane?

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: Wow.

 

E: With my two,with my radio operator and my jeep driver.

 

01:35:30

I: So, you are the last two US soldiers that actually departed

E: Yes, actually the last three that left North Korea. We left about 4 o’clock. 6 o’clock we were back in Tankatsu [Tokyo] in Japan. 7 o’clock, I was home getting ready to have a Christmas Eve dinner with my family, which I had left back in Japan. So,

 

I: Let me ask this question.

 

01:36:00

 

I: Is it correct that the General Almond did not allow North Korean refugee to be evacuated through the ships there?

 

E: Well, no. Originally he said, ‘Look, we have to take all the supplies out and not allow the North Korean soldiers to have any ammunition and arms, and powdered milk and things. Destroy everything.’ But then

 

01:36:30

 

E: There was a Korean Army officer who had gone to the United States to study medicine, he came back and was back in the Korean Army, and he came to my staff, and particularly the Marine on my staff, and said, ‘ Look,it’s more important to bring these North Korean refugees

 

01:37:00

 

E: Then, then to allow the Chinese to have these supplies.’

 

I: What’s his name? Do you remember?

 

E: He, I’ll think of it in a minute. Was very well known. Let’s see, um, just have a mental block. You know, he was very well known. And he talked to me about it and he said ‘will you go with me to talk to General Almond and tell him it was more important to let

 

01:37:30

 

E: The North Korean refugees come out then,then bring the supplies out. And General Almond said, ‘OK, squeeze in, but take all the important stuff, take all the tanks and important stuff south.’ So we did, and we squeezed in as many  North Korean as we could.  I’m trying to think of the name…

 

I: Forney?

 

E: Forney, Colonel Forney,

 

01:38:00

 

E: And actually there’s a monument built to Colonel Forney. I think down south of Pusan in memory of this thing. Because actually he was the one that the Korean doctor, soldier, went to and came and the three of us went to see General Almond. And I helped him talk to General Almond. And General Almond said ‘Sure’, he said, ‘ I think saving these

 

01:38:30

 

E: North Koreans is more important than saving these supplies.’

 

I: So you were there with Captain Forney?

 

E: Colonel Forney, yeah.

 

I: Colonel Forney.

 

E:: Oh, yeah, very fine man. Yeah.

 

I: And you talked with the General Almond that we need to vacate these North Korean refugees?

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: So, you are two of those?

 

E: Yeah, it was not my idea originally. It was the idea of this Korean officer who studied medicine back in the United States

 

01:39:00

 

E: And came back. It was his idea, but he talked to Colonel Forney, and Forney was part of my staff, in the 10th Corp. So, Forney did most of the talking to General Almond and convinced him, and I helped. And of course this Korean doctor helped to convince him to allow us. And General Almond said, yes that’s the correct thing to do.

 

01:39:30

 

I:: So, it is incorrect to say that General Almond prevented it?

 

E: Oh, absolutely incorrect.

 

I: Yeah.

 

E: He allowed it. General Almond’s original orders were something you would naturally expect.

 

I: Right.

 

E: Take all the important supplies south.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: And didn’t have much thought, didn’t have much thought that there would be these North Korean evacuees. But, when the North Koreans lined up by the tens of thousands,

 

01:40:00

 

E: Why, then the situation changed.

 

I: When did you, ok

 

E: In the early days of December.

 

I: When did you depart from Korea?

 

E:: Ah, on Christmas Eve.

 

I: So, December 24th

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: Of 1950? 1950

 

E: 1950, yeah.

 

Male Voice: Sir, can we get you to sit back?

 

I: And, that was the last time that you were in Korea during the war?

 

01:40:30

 

E: No, no, no, no. The day after Christmas, General Almond found out I was alive and he said, ‘You come back.’

 

I: [Laughs]

 

E: So, I had to get on a plane and go back to North Korea. I mean back to South Korea, to Pusan,

 

I: From where?

 

E: From, I was in Tokyo,

 

I: Uh-huh.

 

E: And General Almond and his staff were all back in Pusan. So, I went back and General Almond

 

01:41:00

 

E: Changed my job from Corps Engineer to Corps G4, the supply and logistics officer. Because the General Smith, Aubrey Smith, who had been a G4 was killed on Christmas Day. He was given a leave to Tokyo and

 

01:41:30

 

E: His wife came home and found her husband in bed with a Japanese maid. So, she killed him. She stabbed him. So then General Almond says it’s more important that I have a good logistics officer than an engineer. The engineer work is now largely over,

 

01:42:00

 

E: But they have great logistics supplies needs as we go north. We have to rebuild the bridges, and rebuild the railroads, and bring in supplies, and build airstrips to bring in supplies to go north. So, he made me the G4. So for six months, I was a G4 of the10th Corps until General Almond made me the regimental commander of the, then

 

01:42:30

 

E: First the deputy regimental commander, and then later the regimental commander of the 38th Infantry.

 

I: So you went up to Heartbreak Ridge?

 

E: Yes, oh yes.

 

I: Tell me about that Heartbreak Ridge. At the time.

 

E: Well, Heartbreak Ridge was a key point for all the defenses when they were flying north and south along the 38th Parallel. And my unit

 

01:43:00

 

E: Was actually on the flank of Heartbreak Ridge. And actually higher and I think that our capture of this high ground had a lot to do with our ability to defend Heartbreak Ridge. So, I was not given much credit for it but, it’s questionable how much

 

01:43:30

 

E: I think it did a great deal of benefit by protecting the flank and shooting down on the ridge and the troops down there did too.  But, my unit is not going down in the history books the way the other troops on Heartbreak Ridge where a lot of fighting took place. Because I took my hill and 300 hundred killed and wounded on the Chinese side

 

01:44:00

 

E: And not a single fatality on our side.

 

I: What else, major battle did you involve during the war?

 

E:: Well…I

 

I: When did you depart permanently from Korea during the Korean War? When was, when did you do that?

 

E: I think it was, I think it was May or June of 1953. Actually, the peace talks had started, I think before Christmas at the end of 1952,

 

01:44:30

 

E: I’m not sure of the date.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: But I actually went up and sat in and listened to some of the arguments back and forth with the North Koreans and…

 

I: In Pamunjon?

 

E: In Pamunjon. So, I actually got a taste of what the negotiations were like because the North Koreans were arguing just the way the Russians were and they were being coached by the Russians in Pamunjon.

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

01:45:00

 

I: Were you married at the time?

 

E: Yes, I married on

 

I: When did you marry?

 

E: I married the day after Christmas 1941. Pearl Harbor was struck December 7th

 

I Yup.

 

E: And on December 21st we were alerted to be ready to be the first unit to go overseas and

 

01:45:30

 

E: Colonel Wood decided to give half of the officers three days leave for Christmas and half the officers three days leave for New Year’s. Three days each. Actually, we had no married officers in the regiment out of, I think, twenty-four officers. So, Colonel Wood was single and he wanted all of his officers

 

01:46:00

 

E: To be single. He didn;t want them to be burdened down by family. So, actually I got married the day after Christmas and went back to work the next day. Back home. And out of the twelve officers that were on leave six got married

 

I: Hmm.

 

E: Over the Christmas leave.

 

I: [Laughs]

 

E: [Laughing] So, Colonel Wood was heart broken, particularly that

 

01:46:30

 

E: I was married. I was one of his favorite officers and, also, I had a date with his niece to take her to the New Year’s Ball.

 

I: [Laughs]

 

E: So, he was very disappointed in me, but then he later forgave me.

 

I: Did he de-promote you?

 

E: He later he promoted me.

 

I: What was the most difficult thing during the Korean War? Was it the weather?

 

01:47:00

 

I: Was it isolation? What was the most difficult thing to you?

 

E:: Well, a combination of two. The weather and the lack of training of both the South Korean and the U.S. troops. And a lack of sufficient tanks and good modern equipment.

 

I: Mm.

 

E: So, a combination of weather and equipment. Plus, the fact that there was these difficulties

 

01:47:30

 

E: In command where General Willoughby was not giving MacArthur good advice. General Almond and Walker, the 7th Army commander were feuding. And it was very unusual to have MacArthur’s Chief of Staff also command of a division because now General MacArthur’s orders

 

01:48:00

 

E: To 7th Army command were going through Almond. So, he was right in the chain of command. Transmitting MacArthur’s orders to General Walker, which General Walker didn’t like either. So, it was a difficult situation. Physically because of the weather, logistically because of a lack of good trained troops and supplies, and politically because of the difficulty of personalities.

 

01:48:30

 

I: If you were the President during the Korean War, what would you do differently? What would you do differently about the relationship between Presidents of the United States and MacArthur, General MacArthur. What would you do differently about the overall policy on the Korean War, if you were the President at the time?

 

E: It’s very hard for me to say. The resistance in the State Department

 

01:49:00

 

E: To doing more in Korea, doing more against the Chinese was very strong, And was very real in a way because we fought, ran, the risk of going into World War III because if the Russians would come in with their nuclear weapons. So,

 

01:49:30

 

E: It was a very difficult situation and it was very important not to have a war. And MacArthur was very aggressive and you had to hold him back. On the other hand MacArthur was very popular. A lot of people thought he should have been the President of the United States. And maybe if he would have run to be President he might have become the President. But I thought, it’s hard to say

 

01:50:00

 

E: What I would have done because Dean Achenson was so very well respected and the situation was tough. Truman really had to go carefully. Now, on the other hand, some of the history books were not correct when they said there was feuding between Truman and MacArthur. They said that when Truman and MacArthur met on the Island of Formosa that

 

01:50:30

 

E: MacArthur turned his back on him and would not salute him. I had a personal friend who was there and he said no. That was just the press trying to make good press. MacArthur was actually correct, saluted and was polite to Truman. So, there was not this. Truman did not have a great deal of love for MacArthur and

 

01:51:00

 

E: MacArthur thought that Truman was too weak but that Truman did not insult Truman.

 

I: Oh, that’s very

 

E: MacArthur did not insult Truman. That’s incorrect.

 

I: I read that book and I read that part that General MacArthur did not salute Truman.

 

E:: No, that’s false.

 

Ir: So, That’s wrong?

 

E: But One of my very best friends,

 

01:51:30

 

E: Who was president of the White House Press Corps, was there and he said that’s not true.

 

I: Did General MacArthur have ambition to run for President?

 

E: We don’t know. He was certainly an ambitious man and certainly would flatter a great deal, and certainly was very popular. Especially after Incheon. And he was a very famous general.

 

01:52:00

 

E: He’d become a division commander at a young age in WWI and became Chief of Staff for the Army and had become the Superintendent at West Point. And had been the High Commissioner in the Philippines. So he was very well known and Truman was brand new and came in after Kennedy was assassinated

 

I: Franklin Roosevelt

 

E: I mean when Roosavelt died.

 

01:52:30

 

E: And was not very well trained but certainly had good judgement in getting the United Nations into the war in a hurry. So,

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: So, it’s hard to say what you would do in a particular situation when you’re not actually in the middle of that.

 

I: Right.

 

E: You have to obey or

 

01:53:00

 

E: Not obey, you have to listen to your advisors, even if you have some bad ones. I’m now reading the history of the Civil War and certainly Abraham Lincoln had his full amount of troubles with his Chief of Staff and then with his Chief of Treasury, Secretary of Treasury. Not Chief of Staff, but Secretary of State. So,

 

01:53:30

 

E: Abraham Lincoln had these great difficulties but handled them with great skill.

 

I: Do you agree with the decision made by Truman, President Truman, to fire General MacArthur in the middle.

 

Rowny: Oh yes, oh yes. It was absolutely necessary and justified necessarily because MacArthur had taken some bad advice and written a letter to Senator McCarthy saying that

 

01:54:00

 

E: President Truman was not correctly conducting his office and so I think  it was absolutely necessary. Now, on the other hand I don’t think Truman needed to be so rough with MacArthur. I think he could have been more generous and more forgiving of MacArthur. He was

 

01:54:30

 

E: Very rough on MacArthur but it was absolutely correct and necessary for Truman to fire MacArthur.

 

I: What is personally Korea to you, now? You didn’t know much about Korea, Right?

 

E: No.

 

I: And you didn’t have much hope about the future of Korea when you left Korea in 1953?

 

01:55:00

 

I: You didn’t think that Korea would become like this today?

 

E: Oh, absolutely not, no. I had no inkling, no idea that this tiny mustard seed would grow into this big mustard bush. No.

 

I: Now you saw Korea completely, completely transformed?

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: So, what is Korea to you? You didn’t know anything about Korea before you joined the military. Now,

 

01:55:30

 

I: You know what Korea is. What is Korea to you? You were in the middle of the war?

 

E: Korea is proof that with enough brain power and enough will power to get this done, people can pull themselves up from nothing into something. To go from, as I said before, this mustard seed became a mustard bush and became the 11th greatest economy

 

01:56:00

 

E: In the world. So, with enough brain power and will power. Now I say will power because it’s actually difficult politically and as you know the Koreans had their great difficulty. A lot of people didn’t want the Koreans to be dealing with the United States and liked the dictatorship.

 

01:56:30

 

E: And as a matter of fact, unless there was a dictatorship at times they might not have been able to get things done. So it was a very difficult situation politically, even though there were dictators and difficulties, in the end the democracy won out more than a dictatorship.

 

I:: Amazing. You wanted to become a civil engineer

 

01:57:00

 

I: Building bridges when you graduated from Johns Hopkins. Now you become one of the most famous generals for the Korean War. You got the Medal of Honor from the Korean Government. I was talking to you about that when you made a trip to Korea when you were supposed to be awarded with the Medal of Honor, so I am so honored to be part of this whole thing. But, how did this military experience in Korea affect you?

 

01:57:30

 

I: What made you, right now, because of the military service that you did for the Korean War, how did it affect you wanting to become a civilian bridge builder?

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: And how did it change you?

 

E: Well, it changed me by showing that people who are willing to change and willing to have government that will allow changes and can pick themselves up by the bootstraps. First, the Japanese

 

01:58:00

 

E: Did this in 1857, after the Meiji Restoration. The Meiji government fell down and the Japanese

 

I: Yup.

 

E: Went in and they copied all the best things that were going on around the world. And they were not ashamed to take other peoples ideas and with their own kind of dictatorship the Japanese pulled themselves up pretty strong. Then Korea did even

 

01:58:30

 

E: More remarkable miracle by being farther behind and didn’t go ahead of Japan, but they went pretty high in their economy. Per capita, I think, the Koreans were pretty close to the Japanese per capita income. Not sure exactly what it is but of course Japan is stronger in population. Japan I think is number three economy in the world now.

 

I: Yup.

 

01:59:00

 

I: Wow, that’s an amazing comment. As I told you, this interview will be checked out by young students in America and Korea.

 

E: I hope so. I hope you can convince them to pay a lot of attention to what happened.

 

I: Why don’t you directly say to them? What would you say to the young generations of the U.S. and Korea?

 

E: I would say, remember that it can happen here.

 

01:59:30

 

E: That there is no substitute for being prepared. As Reagan said during the Cold War, “Peace through strength.” you have to defend yourself. You can’t rely on diplomacy alone, or even economics, to be strong. So, I would say until there is a new world

 

02:00:00

 

E: Order of some kind, that we can absolutely count on.  Which I don’t see happening in my lifetime and maybe certainly not in yours. Remember peace through strength. Remember that war is a necessity in this day and age, and democracy does not come cheap. As some

 

02:00:30

 

E: Famous person said, “The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of patriots,” so this unfortunate state of civilization in the world, so until there is some different world order which is short of.  Remember, first

 

02:01:00

 

E: Reflect on tremendous hardship and thousands and thousands, maybe millions or more, Koreans died in the Korean War. I don’t know how many but I saw this untold suffering, death, disease, starvation, freezing men, women and children and saw how

 

02:01:30

 

E: Miraculously the Koreans could be built up. But, don’t take too much for granted. We made that mistake after WWI, and we were caught unprepared and had to fight hard to win WWII because we let our troops go down too low. Again, we allowed it to go too low in support of South Korea.

 

02:02:00

 

E: And allowed the North Koreans to invade. Don’t allow your armed forces to get too low.

 

I: That’s amazing comments that you made. And just one more. Do you have any contact with offspring of General MacArthur? Do you know of any grandchildren?

 

E: No. There are no grandchildren.

 

02:02:30

 

E: MacArthur had one son who was born sickly.

 

I: Ah.

 

E: I visited MacArthur and his wife and son. After MacArthur’s relief I went up and I saw him up in his apartment in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City. And MacArthur has no offspring.

 

Interviewer: Ok. Are you planning to celebrate your 100th year birthday?

 

02:03:00

 

E: Oh, yes.

 

I: Aww, that’s great.

 

E: Yeah.

 

I: General, this is an amazing interview.

 

E: Well, I appreciate you coming down and I’m glad that you’re spreading the word to the younger generation. That they have so much to be proud of. At the same time they are so proud of where they’ve come from and how wealthy they are in the 11th strongest country in the world with a high standard of living.

 

02:03:30

 

E: Remember that it can happen here. It happened at least twice to the United States and they were unprepared. And don’t let the, as much as you want to spend this  money for other things, for social reforms and medicare and what not, the economy, don’t underdo the, overlook

 

02:04:00

 

E: The necessity of your own strong military and correct diplomacy. Stay strong partners with the United States and the West.

 

I: What is the importance of U.S. and Korea alliance, do you think?

 

E: Oh, it is very important to show that it is one of the strongest alliances in the world. That and the alliance with NATO were two strong

 

02:04:30

 

E: Sets of alliances. And the alliance with Japan. Three sets of strong alliances but Korea is right up there with NATO and Japan as a strong alliance, and I think that we should stay strong.

 

I: Great.

 

E: Strong friends and close allies.

 

I: My foundation wants to purchase some of your books and to distribute at the history teacher’s conference next year, ok?  So I will talk

 

02:05:00

 

I: With David.

 

E: Yeah David will show you how. David, you know how to go onto Amazon,com and get the books. Now, I don’t know about the Korean version. Maybe you can look into that, Davi, and find out who did this. There was some Korean publisher

 

02:05:30

 

E: Who decided he would publish this free of charge

 

I: Mm-hm.

 

E: For the Korean government. He was helped then later by President Park who ordered enough copies to be bought  to put in other places. But, I don’t know quite how to get these books, And I will also

 

02:06:00

 

E: Mention the fact that this is not for any great economic benefit of me

 

I: Yeah, we understand that.

 

E: Because any profits made on the book go to the Korean War Veterans.

 

02:06:30

 

E:: [Plays the Harmonica]

 

02:06:53

 

[End of recorded material]